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Old 12-24-2004, 03:41 PM   #41
johnny
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cerek:
No offense was meant, Johnny. That's why I made sure to say that it appeared safer compared to the American sport. Then again, your version of football doesn't include any pads.

Soccer/football is slowly gaining popularity here in America, but it still doesn't get much coverage on national TV - so you're right - I haven't actually seen much soccer/football...especially some of the more brutal match-ups you mentioned.

I would think the closest American comparison would be basketball rather than football. Both teams run up and down the court with no pads and LOTS of physical contact (especially near the goal/basket). I don't think there is ANY way a woman could play on the same court as a pro-men's team.

Like you said, it can get very brutal at times.

I know soccer/football is very physical - we just don't see much of that aspect of the game on TV coverage here.
Should the US ever win a major tournament, it will probably get the attention it deserves, and from what i know about the current US generation of young rising stars, they are well on their way of getting there. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Funny you mention basketball, which is "supposed" to be a no contact sport. Too bad noone ever informed Malone about that.

Maybe Lisa Leslie could play along for a few minutes in the men's world, she's the only woman i've ever seen making a dunk.
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Old 12-25-2004, 12:08 AM   #42
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For the woman to get to that level or standard to even be considered suitable for a professional men’s team, means she would already posses the physical and mental strength required. So the argument about her being able to cope, in my eyes, misses the point. She is already good enough, probably through damned hard work, then for some guy in a suit to say, "Sorry sweetheart but I am not going to let you become employed and earn a really good wage because you are a woman???"

Sorry, but it sounds like FIFA and others are spouting sexist trash to me. [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img]

Here is more on the story.....


Football's world governing body, Fifa, has ruled that a leading Mexican woman footballer is not eligible to play for a professional men's club. Maribel Dominguez signed for Mexico's second-division club Celaya this week - a move which would have been a first in North and Central America's sport. But Fifa's executive committee said that "there must be a clear separation between men's and women's football". Dominguez, 26, has scored 42 goals in 43 games for the national women's team.

from the BBC

[ 12-25-2004, 12:16 AM: Message edited by: wellard ]
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Old 12-25-2004, 08:43 AM   #43
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It has nothing to do with being sexist, they simply don't wanna ruin the world's most popular sport.
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Old 12-25-2004, 04:32 PM   #44
Aelia Jusa
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cerek:

Most experiments of women "crossing over" into men's domains has not worked. The female golfer (that I believe wellard mentioned earlier) managed to get permission to compete in a men's tournament, and was eliminated early in the second round.
I think it's important to note that the isolated tournament Annika competed in should not be considered proof that women cannot cut it in men's golf, playing from the same tees as men. She missed the cut, but so did a lot of men also competing. She didn't come last. She also had a ton of pressure from media, and her own expectations and desires not to look silly, that it is not indicative of how she would perform day in, day out, on the men's tour. Hardly any of the top male golfers play a season without missing at least a few cuts in tournaments.

One reason I oppose women playing in men's sport like this, is because when they do, it's not about equality. It's about a spectacle. It puts women's sport BACK, I think, because it suggests that women playing sport are not the equal to men in terms of relative ability and how much they train, but a curiosity in the otherwise male-dominated field. And then when they fail, or don't do as well, like Annika did, it's 'proof' that women aren't men's equal, even though there are a myriad of reasons that they didn't do as well, because of course, the contest wasn't equal at all.

It's also why I disagree strongly with women's sporting teams doing those nude calendars to raise money and awareness of their team. It doesn't make people more likely to watch them play and show up to their games, which they really NEED because most women's sport receives a lot less funding and support and sponsership than men's. It makes their sporting efforts look less impressive because they are implicitly saying watch me play because I am sexy, not because I'm talented or fast or strong. It's sad because men's teams don't need to do this, because they have the funding. I really don't like watching some women's sport. Women's cricket, for instance, I find really boring. But it doesn't need to be that way. There really isn't any reason that professional women's cricket shouldn't be as gripping as men's. But women playing don't get the support - either at the elite level or the grass roots level, to make a real go of it. They don't get the salaries and there aren't the development programs allowing a large player base to choose from. So it's a vicious cycle - women's sport isn't supported by fans because it isn't as good so they don't get as much sponsership and funding, but the lack of funding means their sport isn't interesting enough to attract fans.
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Old 12-27-2004, 08:36 AM   #45
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Aelia - I agree that one tournament doesn't define a career - or even the ability - of any golfer. I don't know if Tiger Woods has ever missed a cut, but there have been plenty of tournaments where he didn't finish in the top 5 - yet nobody questions his ability.

You're right that there are a number of men out there that miss the cut on several tournaments a year. If I remember correctly, Annika's performance was actually given a fairly good review. I believe she made it to the second round of cuts and most reports I heard were giving her credit for doing that well. It did raise questions of whether or not she could compete consistently on the same level as the men. Then again, there is one male golfer that is petitioning to have the restriction of golf cart use lifted. He has some type of problem with his hips and legs and cannot walk the full length of the course. Even though it has been an official rule of PGA for years that ALL participants MUST be able to walk the full length of the course without the use of a golf cart, this guy sued the PGA on grounds of discrimination (can't remember his name).

I don't follow golf at all, but I would imagine Annika could "keep up with the boys" if she really was given a fair shot and if she could ignore the tons of pressure that would be on her to perform well.

Johnny - Lisa Leslie may be good, but she has never had to face Shaq or Dikembe Mutumbo. Somehow, I don't think she would be able to dunk on someone that size. There aren't any 7ft centers in the WNBA.
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Old 12-27-2004, 09:23 AM   #46
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I find it sickening, professional sports should not be segragated (well maybe mud wrestling should be)..

Point is, opertunity should be equal, skill shouold determin who get's to play rather than gender..

Some of you have mentioned some women would be better than some men, well let them play instead of the men that they are better than..


I read half these post's and I see the worst kind of sexism, you play pretend that your for equal opertunity but then say "but they are not good enough anyway" or "they would get hurt"..

It's comments like these that get me so angry, your acting high and mighty saying men are better than women "because" with no reasons, but they should be treated as equal, upto a point..


You have All gone way down in my estimation.
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Old 12-27-2004, 10:00 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Q'alooaith:

You have All gone way down in my estimation.
Oh no.
---------------------------

Anyway, I think it's agreed that men will not play properly with women in contact sports, simply either out of fear of injuring the female competitor or to avoid the obvious media scandal that will be associated with the injury.

I know I couldn't bring myself to tackle a female player.

But if it's not a contact sport like Rowing, Golf or whatever, sure. Female crews row against male crews at my rowing club on a regular basis.

But realistically speaking, women and men are not going to play together in contact sport. Just let either gender play in their own league, what's the big deal?
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Old 12-27-2004, 10:23 AM   #48
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I think part of the issue comes back to the business side of things. A top player in the WNBA makes a max of $87,000 (per the WNBA collective bargaining agreement). The minimum salary for a rookie in the NBA is $300,000. The average WNBA salary is either $46,000 or $60,000, while the average NBA salary is $4.5 million. Why do women want into that league? Well, there are several million reasons right there!

That's not to say that it comes down to a money issue, because it doesn't. But the existing infrastructure (including a fan base) is there to support the NBA, and it's not there to support the WNBA.

Would you like to be told that you can do a job for X over here, but you can't go over there, do the same job, and get 100X for it?

To put it further into perspective, the CBA (minor league to the NBA) pays even less than the WNBA, from my recollections. It also struggles for lack of a fan base, and it's a league where a team that's been around for five years is considered ancient.

If there were a comparable women's league for pro sports, then there wouldn't (I believe) be an issue. But there isn't, so there's an issue.

I do think that anyone wanting to play up in the major leagues needs to acknowledge and accept that when you play with the big dogs, you're going to get bit on occasion. Accept it and move on. It's nothing personal... the big dogs bite anyone who moves into their turf.
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Old 12-27-2004, 10:42 AM   #49
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I have no problem tacking women, if they get hurt it's just like any other player getting hurt..

Women have a higher pain threshold generaly speaking.

The money that gets thrown around is just crazy in pro sports.
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Old 12-27-2004, 04:14 PM   #50
Aelia Jusa
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cerek:

You're right that there are a number of men out there that miss the cut on several tournaments a year. If I remember correctly, Annika's performance was actually given a fairly good review. I believe she made it to the second round of cuts and most reports I heard were giving her credit for doing that well.
Just FYI... there is only one cut in a golf tournament. There are four rounds; everyone plays the first two rounds. Then, approximately half (I think? Maybe a third. Lets say it's half anyway ) the players are cut because their score is worse than the cut-off. The score cut-off is determined by the score that the top half of the players get - so, if the score of the players on the 50th percentile is +2, then the cut will be +3 and everyone who scored +3 or above is cut. Then everyone left plays the last two rounds [img]smile.gif[/img]

Quote:
Originally posted by Cerek:

It did raise questions of whether or not she could compete consistently on the same level as the men..
Yes, and my point was, it shouldn't have. There's no way such questions could be answered by that one performance that was affected by so many other factors than her ability. These 'experiments' are damaging to women's sport precisely because they do raise such questions, when they cannot possibly answer them, and the last thing they represent is women and men competing equally in the same competition.
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