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Old 10-09-2001, 04:12 PM   #51
Silver Cheetah
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Join Date: July 26, 2001
Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:

Ah yes, post modernism. Unfortunately I am post-post modernist in my thinking.
Take for example my thinking that I alone have absolute truth. Under post modernist thought I am right, for by concieving my truth I make it right.

So here goes.

I possess absolute truth. This is my reality and my truth so it is right, and you as a true post modernist cannot presume me to be wrong.



Aha, but I don’t do ‘isms’. And I do not recognise the validity of your dismissal of my thinking as postmodernist (cheeky )

My thinking comes from a wide variety of sources, first and foremost being my own experience, which is considerable and varied, though I do say it myself.... Admittedly, I have been exposed to postmodernism, - however, I decided not to pursue it after going up my own backside for the fifth time running....

Whatever, anyhow, I reject your concept, and continue to argue that what works for me is ‘right’ for me, and what works for you is ‘right’ for you. ( I don’t think post modernist thought boils down to ‘by conceiving my truth I make it right’. Or perhaps I have misunderstood what you mean by that phrase. Could you give me a concrete example of what you mean?.......... Then I’d be able to respond more fully. Thanks...

Everyone thinks their beliefs are true. Personally, as I’ve said before, I think none of them are, if we are talking about true beliefs corresponding to the ‘true’ state of reality. We none of us can perceive reality, as it truly is. We work with what we can perceive, and make sense of things as best we can.

Language gets in the way of a true perception, with its associated concepts, emotions, inherent bias, and all the rest. Given this, how can any of us claim to have the truth on reality (and that includes the divine...)


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[This message has been edited by Silver Cheetah (edited 10-09-2001).]
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Old 10-09-2001, 05:33 PM   #52
G'kar
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I'm not talking about an individuals grace, but Grace. Christs Grace. The Grace that removes an individual from the consequence of spiritual Law - including that of Karma. This is the WHOLE POINT of Christs death. If you cannot understand that, youu have not grasped the whole point of him being here at all, the reason for his willing death, and why Christians put their faith in him.

But don't trust me. Go read about it from any other Christian theologian as to what Christs Grace enables.

Also, I've personally experienced it. Ah, but if you've never experienced it I'm wasting my time. It's like explaining breathing air to a fish

I respect your personal beliefs. I can understand why you would want to interject your own in response to mine,although I didnt mention grace until you did. You still presumed something from my personal belief that "you Reap what you sow" is a biblical analogy for Karma. I shared it, and didnt mention grace once until it was thrown at me out of context of what I wrote. I dont have any one religion, I have them all, an inheritance of the earths collective wisdom and knowledge. So it doesnt matter if I dont call myself a "christian" and want to share how I veiw "do unto others", or "ya reap what ya sow". I found both of those biblical snippets as being relevant to the topic in question. That a cut-throat competive mindset, prevelant in some capitalist and materialistic thought conflicts with certain virtues that many religions share.

Conerning grace, Seek and ye shall find is my belief. Only an individual can expirience for oneself the kind of enlightenment you are promoting. Christ did as an individual, and as some believe for all-mankind as well by example but so have other wise folk through the ages. A rose by another name is still a rose.
Few christians would agree though, seeing as how there is still a prevelant belief of exclusivness with regards to certain spiritual expiriences.

And if I seemed agressive, perhaps you asked for it some, perhaps my recent consecutive 13hr work days, chronic muscle pain, and little sleep each night contributed to my portion. I didnt flame though, I confronted. I still stand behind the ghist of what I wrote.
 
Old 10-09-2001, 10:41 PM   #53
John D Harris
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Join Date: March 27, 2001
Location: Northport,Alabama, USA
Age: 62
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown:
John, from my reading of the New Testament, Jesus taught among other things to give up virtually all worldly possessions in pursuit of the spiritual life. He thought that the pursuit of worldly possessions was a hindrance to true spirituality, as exemplified by such statements as "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven."

Now, this seems to contrast markedly with the "religion" of capitalism (and I agree with Yorick that capitalism itself can be seen as a religion), which preaches diametrically opposite things, namely how the purpose of existence is precisely to pursue worldly possessions.
"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven" You spoke the truth, but not all of the truth please read a couple of verses down in Matt.19, Mark 10,or Luke 18 you will see this quote "with men this is impossible, but wuth God all things are possible"
To be honest Dio I must beg your forgivness because I set you up I knew where you were going and that you would most probably not read the entire story.
It is the love of money that is the root of all evil not money. The rich young ruler in the story loved his possessions more than God, as is evidenced by his actions.
I'm a capitalist pig and proud of it, but no where near as proud as I am of my Lord.


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Old 10-10-2001, 03:07 PM   #54
Diogenes Of Pumpkintown
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Quote:
Originally posted by John D Harris:
"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven" You spoke the truth, but not all of the truth please read a couple of verses down in Matt.19, Mark 10,or Luke 18 you will see this quote "with men this is impossible, but wuth God all things are possible"
To be honest Dio I must beg your forgivness because I set you up I knew where you were going and that you would most probably not read the entire story.
It is the love of money that is the root of all evil not money. The rich young ruler in the story loved his possessions more than God, as is evidenced by his actions.
I'm a capitalist pig and proud of it, but no where near as proud as I am of my Lord.


No need to ask for forgiveness, John

I see your point.

When I started this thread I was doubtful that anyone could answer my points satisfactorily, but several of you have shown me I was mistaken.

Thanks for the illumination
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Old 10-10-2001, 03:45 PM   #55
pritchke
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Bill Gates is similar to Sadaam Hussain. Bill Gates has millions of people working for him who are trying to make a living. Without them Bill Gates would be nothing. The local garbage people try to survive. The local garbage people jobs are just as important as Bill Gates job. Why is there such a sperateation of wealth? It because those with the power and money hunger for more power and money and arn't willing to share the wealth. If all men were considered equal and we lived in a Utopian society were each individuals role was considered important, no one would be starving, or not able to afford medicare. If all the wealth of the world were distributed evenly every one would be a millionaire. Still not every one would be able to be a doctor or engineer because has we know from our society not everyone is smart enough to be do so although everyone would have the opportunity to do so. As long as people did not become lazy and did there part in society than an ideal world we would have. With today's technology no one should be starving in the world. Although people like Bill Gates do not like being equal and they would no longer be able exploit peoples needs and wants. Churchhill said, "Democracy is the worst type of government after all the others.". He was right it was the best available at the time and still is, although I think he may have had a vision of a different type of government that would be better in the future were men are truly equal, and no one suffers, or starves because thay can not afford medicine or food.
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Old 10-10-2001, 03:48 PM   #56
Cloudbringer
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Join Date: March 1, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by John D Harris:
"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven" You spoke the truth, but not all of the truth please read a couple of verses down in Matt.19, Mark 10,or Luke 18 you will see this quote "with men this is impossible, but wuth God all things are possible"
To be honest Dio I must beg your forgivness because I set you up I knew where you were going and that you would most probably not read the entire story.
It is the love of money that is the root of all evil not money. The rich young ruler in the story loved his possessions more than God, as is evidenced by his actions.
I'm a capitalist pig and proud of it, but no where near as proud as I am of my Lord.

John, wow.. I'm impressed. Concise and to the heart of things. And I am pleased someone pointed out that money itself is blameless, greed and worship of money is the sin.

Cloudy


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Old 10-10-2001, 03:59 PM   #57
Diogenes Of Pumpkintown
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Regarding my "arrogance", there is no insecurity. Odd that you would think it so. It is precisely the opposite my friend. Doubts and crisis of faith were things - are things - that I embrace as a precursor to a deeper level of understanding, not something I fear or remove myself from.

Regarding my "putting down" other religions, I post reactively, not proactively to ideas and theologies posted. I spent six months on here before people even knew I was Christian. I have actually shown restraint regarding my objections. Shown tolerance of other beliefs. I try wherever possible to challenge the central generic teaching, not an individuals interpretation. I respect anyones right to believe what they will. This respect must be mutual however. I am not pantheistic. Christ is not "one of the ways" one can take, but in my belief the only way. Tolerating my position is as important as me tolerating theirs.

I do care about others Dio. I care that others have not tasted Grace. I care that others are on a path to what I percieve as oblivion. I previously had no care for those that didn't want to know Christ. That was their business. Between them and God. It was arrogant of me to presume to impose my truth upon others. I knew where I was going and that's all that mattered. Consequently I only spoke of my theologies to fellow believers, taught in bible colleges, had fellowship with others on the same path.

However I have had a growing concern for others - especially after WTC. I have seen the spiritual ache and hunger in people I have spoken to that I'd have never thought possible. I've had people willing to hear, willing to open their minds in an attempt to find the same God I know. If I know him, who am I to keep that to myself? Knowing God has given me such inner peace, such joy, perception, creativity, love of life, friendliness, connection, thirst for knowledge, artistic appreciation and satisfaction, that I shouldn't be keeping that "secret" to myself. If I speak of it, and people reject it, so be it. At least I have opened my heart to them, and given them an option.

I now have to find a balance between offending, and yet adhering the growing impulses to speak.

These are my beliefs. Part of the things I have to compromise when practicing tolerance. Part of the things that in tolerating me, must also be accepted, if not agreed with.

Yorick, well said.

I apologize for my ealier outburst against you. It was out of line.

Regarding tolerance, I understand your point, and I respect your awareness of the need to strike a balance between the desire not to offend and the desire to speak out.

One thing I would ask you to keep in mind, however, along the lines of not offending , is that the very nature of your religious position can be perceived by people who don't believe as you do as intolerance.

Many people in the world, myself included, take the position that pretty much all religions are equally valid. They each are a part of God's truth, each an imperfect manifestation of the deeper Divine.

A position, like yours, which takes one of those religions and declares it to be THE truth, can be perceived by its very nature as being a good deal more intolerant than other view points like the above mentioned one.

However, I see from your comments that you are in fact aware of this dilemma, and of that I am glad.

Regarding my comments about you being arrogant, I realize that arrogance can often be confused with strength of conviction. Hell, I myself have certainly been accused of being arrogant in the same way lately, for my own convictions, so I sympathize with you

Again, my apologies
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