D&D question

[Arnabas]

I used to play D&D many years ago, but then switched to other systems-- most recently the White Wolf storyteller system. I have my own original campaign setting which I was going to try to make a game of and was tossing around ideas on how to do it. I basically wound up using some parts of the WW system, combined with bits and pieces of other games. All in all, I think I came up with an interesting, logical system.

One of my friends that I game with is in another group as well and is playing 3rd ed. D&D. I thought I'd take a look at it to see what I thought (playing Neverwinter doesn't really give much indication of how pnp would run). My first thought was that it had been made unnecessarily complicated with countless modifiers. A second read-through made it more clear and now I figure I just wasn't paying enough attention the first time.

Anyhow... My question-- unrelated to all that I have said so far-- concerns wizards. I guess I have become too accustomed to magic users in other sypstems, because I find wizards in D&D lacking. I never liked the idea that you would cast a spell and then forget it unless you studied it twice (hello?). I much prefer using a "drain" system (like Shadowrun, for example). Back when I used to play D&D, my house rule was that you could cast a given spell (if it had been studied) as often as you like, so long as you respected the number/day rules. (IE you have studied 3 level 2 spells and can cast 3 per day. Cast all 3 once, or 1 spell 3 times, whatever).

My question is actually about the number of spells per day. This is something that has long bothered me as well and I never really got a satisfactory answer. A cleric, who can cast spells or run around in armour bashing things with his mace can cast more spells per day than a wizard... Wizards are *known* for their spell-casting, so why do they cast so few per day? I assume it is because wizard spells are "more powerful", but seriously, some cleric spells kick butt. A magic user relies on magic and yet he had less of it than a character who has magic plus other abilities. Just curious as to the rationale.

And another question... This campaign setting is something I have developed quite thoroughly over at least about 15 years. I would like to write stories in this setting and try to publish, so I need a bit of info...

Dragons, as presented in D&D have different breath weapons based on colour. Is this a purely D&D convention? I tend to think of white dragons breathing cold, for example, but realize that may simply come from playing D&D for so many years. If I published a book with cold-breath white dragons and lightning-breath blue dragons, whould it be a copyright violation? Does this portrayal of dragonkind belong to D&D?

Comments, answers or general observations welcome and appreciated.

[ 03-07-2005, 02:38 AM: Message edited by: Arnabas ]

[T-D-C]

Originally posted by Arnabas: My question is actually about the number of spells per day. This is something that has long bothered me as well and I never really got a satisfactory answer. A cleric, who can cast spells or run around in armour bashing things with his mace can cast more spells per day than a wizard... Wizards are *known* for their spell-casting, so why do they cast so few per day? I assume it is because wizard spells are "more powerful", but seriously, some cleric spells kick butt. A magic user relies on magic and yet he had less of it than a character who has magic plus other abilities. Just curious as to the rationale.

My understading on this is because Cleric's are given their spells by their gods they can cast more spells per day. Mages have to pull the magic together from the weave and manipluate (sp?) the weave themselves. Thus it would take more effort to cast spells. Plus wizards require spell components. The reason for "forgetting" a spell and needing to study/rest is also so they can regather those components.

Thats my two cents

[Chewbacca]

It depends on how you imagine Mages and Clerics. I usually consider the act of casting spells to be very draining mentally on a mage and draining spiritually on a Cleric.

I use a spell point system inspired by the second edition player's option rules. Under the system I use a mage gets a pool of points and each spell level costs a certain # of points to cast a spell of that level.

"Memorization", or actually "mental focus and attuning with the desired spells", is still required but a mage can "cash in" a higher level spell for a few more castings of a lower level or "cash in" a few lower level spells for one or two higher level castings. It all depends on the math and how many spell points the mage has based on character level. Mages can also spend a higher point cost/level to cast spells they haven't "memorized" but are in ther spellbook.

Once all the spell points are gone, the mage is drained and burned out and must rest to regain the mental energy/will power to channel more magical energy AND must refocus and attune to a new batch of desired spells. I'm an easy DM, so a mage need only rest 4-8 hours for full spell restoration.

Clerics on the other hand rely on a different sort of power than a mage. I use a spell point system for them as well. It is similiar to the mage system but doesn't involve any daily "memorization". Clerics can cast any spell they have access to by level and sphere up to their daily spell point limit. Once they exhaust thier spell points they must "rest" or actually reattune with Diety ( pray/mediate/ect.) and reaffirm themselves as a clear conduit for the diety's powers.

The diety grants the spell powers and the Cleric is simply a willing conduit and guide for these powers. A Clerics level and # of spell points is relative to how strong a conduit he or she is for the diety's powers. A higher level Cleric is a better and more practiced conduit and can channel more power.

Now that the background stuff is out of the way I can finally address the point concerning the OP-

Cleric's do seemingly recieve more spells than mages. This is related to where their powers are derived from, the diety. Clerics are only the guide and conduit and their Diety is the source.
Clerics do have to buy access to spheres via a character point system, which can limit their pool of available spells or special abilities. This is in part to balance the fact they can cast more spells a day than a mage.

In contrast Mages rely solely on their own will power and thus are more limited. Mages are the source, guide, AND the conduit for the powers. Unless a specialist, a Mage can cast any spell they have in thier spellbook, can read scrolls, ect. and have a full range of cantrips to use as well.

This is my explaination of the discrepancy between Mages and Clerics and # of spells. It's one of those balancing acts.

I say it is all not writ into stone and if a DM doesn't like it- change it. [img]smile.gif[/img] Expiriment with new rules and find what works and makes sense.

I played in a world where Mages didnt have to memorize and got an intelligence bonus for spells cast per day like the cleric's wisdom bonus. The DM made it work by making sure it stayed balanced using several devices, including limiting spell scrolls and outcasting mages in society.

Mages needed the advantage of more spells a day to survive the harsher circumstances and in addition were more fun/challenging to play because of this mixed with the inventive and more liberal rules.

[Bozos of Bones]

First off, the "memorisation" thing. Why they need to memorize spells at the begining of a day is, by my understanding, not because they forget it, but because they make magical preparations needed to later use the Weave and cast a spell. Think of it as casting spells in two steps, step one being the pre-casting in the morning, step two is the casting when the spell is needed. Sorcerers dont need to memorize because when they choose a spell, they attune their body to it, and casting it is natural. That's why mages can use "Signet Spell" and "Spell at Will" without memorization: they have grown so accustomed to the spell that it becomes natural for them to cast it.
The number of spells per day is a bit inferior to the cleric's, but mages gain extra feats with which they outdo clerics, they gain Metamagic with which they outdo sorcerers, and arcane spells are generally more powerfull than divine. A wizard can hold only a certain number of spells in his head after preparing them in the morning, while a cleric only opens a conduit between himself and his deity and call for the spell, without using the Weave. Think of their choosing of spells as having numbers on speed dial, and then calling their God to bring forth a spell effect from a sphere. Wizards have access to a much greater number of spells than Clerics, and if they specialise their spell/day number is almost the same as a Cleric's, and they still have a greater variety of spells.
I don't think it'd be a copyright violation if white dragons have ice breath weapons, because the DnD system has it a bit deeper, with alignments, intelligence and such. White Dragons are always Evil(Neutral Evil IIRC), Reds(fire) are Chaotic Evil, and all the rest of the Chromatic Dragons are evil, while the Silver, Gold and other Metallic Dragons are good.

[JrKASperov]

And Emerald Dragons are neutral

[Cerek]

All of the explanations given so far are very good - but they are really nothing more than "rationalizations" as to WHY the game was designed the way it was.

The reason for that goes back to Gary Gygax - the creator of the Dungeons & Dragons. Bottom line - the reason for spell limitations on wizards is because they are easily the most powerful characters at high level. Fighters are much better at lower levels and clerics are used primarily for healing. While a cleric CAN be strong, fighters and mages are the two true "power" classes. So Gygax limited the number of spells mages could cast in order to keep them from becoming UBER powerful, which didn't always work.

Some of the members of my original gaming group had managed to get their mages up into the mid-30 level ranger under 1st Edition rules (which was damned hard and took hundreds of hours of gaming). But once you get a 36th level mage, there isn't much that can stand up to him or her.

And most of these guys also created their own unique spells to add to their arsenal.

So - even with all the limitations - wizards are still the strongest class (overall) in the AD&D game system.

[JrKASperov]

Actually, in DnD 3rd edition, I'd take a cleric when I want sheer power. Spells, heavy armor and just as good an Attack Bonus with Divine Power!

The druid is a good second with great offensive power.

[Cerek]

BTW, Arnabas, if you want to make sure you aren't committing any copyright violation with your story, then check with Wizards of the Coast themselves. Tell them what you want to do. They may ask for a rough outline or draft of the story you plan to write, then can let you know if it infringes on their copyrights or not.

You can probably contact them through their website.

Wizard's of the Coast

[Arnabas]

Thanks, all.

[Morgeruat]

[quote]Originally posted by T-D-C:

Originally posted by Arnabas: [qb] My question is actually about the number of spells per day. This is something that has long bothered me as well and I never really got a satisfactory answer. A cleric, who can cast spells or run around in armour bashing things with his mace can cast more spells per day than a wizard... Wizards are *known* for their spell-casting, so why do they cast so few per day? I assume it is because wizard spells are "more powerful", but seriously, some cleric spells kick butt. A magic user relies on magic and yet he had less of it than a character who has magic plus other abilities. Just curious as to the rationale.

In earlier editions clerical magic topped out at level 7 spells (with level 14 of the cleric) they could cast more low level spells, but they weren't as generally useful, especially in combat, as mage spells there are exceptions, like my first game of AD&D, of 5-6 PC's 4-5 were clerics (and a druid) so clerical spells are not weak by any means, just have a different focus and usefulness.