Linguistics

Moiraine · 02-13-2003, 03:44 AM

I have a language question for native English speakers.

When I learned English at school, of course many words didn't have the same root in French and in English. But often in books I find words with the same meanings as in French, and constructed from the same root.

Like for example : "freedom" meaning "liberté" - but the word "liberty" exists too.
Or : "to compel" meaning "obliger" - but I found the word "to oblige" yesterday in a book.
And many more words.

My question is : what subtle difference do you make between "freedom" and "liberty" - between "to compel" and "to oblige" ? [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 02-13-2003, 04:15 AM: Message edited by: Moiraine ]

LordKathen · 02-13-2003, 03:52 AM

I am certianly not an english major, but my take would be:
Liberty- liberated from oppresion and dictatorship.
Freedom- to express ones ideas freely, and live in an envirement controled (mostly) by ones self, free from dictatorship. (not a whole lot different than liberty)

To compel- to persuade a person to an idea.
To oblige- to satisfy.

arion windrider · 02-13-2003, 03:58 AM

moriaine, hi dear

freedom and liberty are pretty much the same in definition. sometimes their usage is different.. both mean free,liberated and such.. for example, we all have freedom to do what we want whenever we want.. for liberty, example, boy, i have liberty to do what i want tonite... compel is to force someone or something to do something it doesnt want to do, for oblige, is constraint... for example oblige to find a job(oblige=forced), or indebted, example, im much oblige for the help sir..(oblige=forced to repay a debt)... i hope some of this makes sense... [img]smile.gif[/img]

Davros · 02-13-2003, 04:01 AM

Hi Moiraine [img]smile.gif[/img]

Liberty and freedom can be taken as having slightly different meanings (per the previous poster, bat can also be taken to mean exactly the same thing (ie he gained his freedom / liberty).

Compel and oblige are completely different - to compel someone is to get then to do something that they were unwilling (previously) to do. To oblige someone is to agree to do what they are asking of you (in essence to satisfy their request).

[ 02-13-2003, 04:06 AM: Message edited by: Davros ]

Moiraine · 02-13-2003, 04:31 AM

So basically what you are saying is that "freedom" would translate as "liberté", and "liberty" would translate more or less as "libération" ? [img]smile.gif[/img]

As for "to oblige" - the word seems closer to the 'old French' verb "obliger" - for example, the polite formula to say "I am in your debt" was "Je suis votre obligé", but it is not in use anymore. Though in the book I read, "to oblige" was closer to "to compel" - it was about a team saying they were obliged to send their report to their boss.

arion windrider · 02-13-2003, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moiraine:
So basically what you are saying is that "freedom" would translate as "liberté", and "liberty" would translate more or less as "libération" ? [img]smile.gif[/img]

As for "to oblige" - the word seems closer to the 'old French' verb "obliger" - for example, the polite formula to say "I am in your debt" was "Je suis votre obligé", but it is not in use anymore. Though in the book I read, "to oblige" was closer to "to compel" - it was about a team saying they were obliged to send their report to their boss.

freedom and liberty are pretty much the same in definition, but usage is different, but means the same.. does that make sense.. and with compel=forced to do something as lordkathen and davros pointed out.. oblige is kinda the same as compel,meaning, u are happy to resolve it without a confrontation. davros pointed that out... just so many words that have same meaning but used differently in context...

wellard · 02-13-2003, 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moiraine:
So basically what you are saying is that "freedom" would translate as "liberté", and "liberty" would translate more or less as "libération" ? [img]smile.gif[/img]

As for "to oblige" - the word seems closer to the 'old French' verb "obliger" - for example, the polite formula to say "I am in your debt" was "Je suis votre obligé", but it is not in use anymore. Though in the book I read, "to oblige" was closer to "to compel" - it was about a team saying they were obliged to send their report to their boss.

overview.
Many words have been brought back into the english language in more recent say 200/300 years from their french , germanic or latin origin. and lay alongside the words that where brought to england by the Angles, saxons, Brits and Celts thousands of years ago and that where manipulated over time by local dialect and poor spelling. Thus you have so many words for the same thing.

oblige is where you feel you have to return say a favour because you would feel bad if you did not. compel means to do something against your better wishes or feelings. The next step in progression would be forced.

And how come you spell better than me

soooo jelous (see)

Moiraine · 02-13-2003, 05:37 AM

Thank you guys ! [img]smile.gif[/img]

My spelling is not bad probably because English is not my native language, so I put extra care when writing it !

The more English I read, the more I find that many words sharing roots with French words are actually closer to the 'old-French' meaning than the current meaning. Funny. Maybe I should take a course in Old French and speak it there !

Je suis votre obligée. *deep cursty*

Masklinn · 02-13-2003, 06:01 AM

I found this explanation here :

"In 1066 England was conquered by William, duke of Normandy, which is in northern France. For several hundred years after the Norman invasion, French was the language of court and polite society in England. It was during this period that many French words were borrowed into English. Linguists estimate that some 60 percent of our common everyday vocabulary today comes from French."

This explains why Moiraine [img]smile.gif[/img]

Masklinn · 02-13-2003, 06:08 AM

And in the text above I found these comparisons :

in / en
to conquer / conquérir
duke / duc
north / nord
language / langage
court / cour
polite / poli
society / société
during / durant
period / periode
linguist / linguiste
to estimate / estimer
percent / pourcent
common / commun
vocabulary / vocabulaire

These 2 languages indeed have a lot in common [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 02-13-2003, 06:11 AM: Message edited by: Masklinn ]

02-13-2003, 03:44 AM	#1
Moiraine Anubis Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Up in the Freedomland Alps Age: 59 Posts: 2,474	I have a language question for native English speakers. When I learned English at school, of course many words didn't have the same root in French and in English. But often in books I find words with the same meanings as in French, and constructed from the same root. Like for example : "freedom" meaning "liberté" - but the word "liberty" exists too. Or : "to compel" meaning "obliger" - but I found the word "to oblige" yesterday in a book. And many more words. My question is : what subtle difference do you make between "freedom" and "liberty" - between "to compel" and "to oblige" ? [img]smile.gif[/img] [ 02-13-2003, 04:15 AM: Message edited by: Moiraine ] __________________ [img]\"http://grumble.free.fr/img/romuald.gif\" alt=\" - \" /><br /><br />The missing link between ape and man is us.

02-13-2003, 03:52 AM	#2
LordKathen Ma'at - Goddess of Truth & Justice Join Date: September 15, 2002 Location: Kennewick, WA Age: 52 Posts: 3,166	I am certianly not an english major, but my take would be: Liberty- liberated from oppresion and dictatorship. Freedom- to express ones ideas freely, and live in an envirement controled (mostly) by ones self, free from dictatorship. (not a whole lot different than liberty) To compel- to persuade a person to an idea. To oblige- to satisfy. __________________

02-13-2003, 03:58 AM	#3
arion windrider Red Wizard of Thay Join Date: May 26, 2001 Location: Vancouver,Wa. Age: 55 Posts: 800	moriaine, hi dear freedom and liberty are pretty much the same in definition. sometimes their usage is different.. both mean free,liberated and such.. for example, we all have freedom to do what we want whenever we want.. for liberty, example, boy, i have liberty to do what i want tonite... compel is to force someone or something to do something it doesnt want to do, for oblige, is constraint... for example oblige to find a job(oblige=forced), or indebted, example, im much oblige for the help sir..(oblige=forced to repay a debt)... i hope some of this makes sense... [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ \"if it aint broke dont fix it\" <img border=\"0\" alt=\"[dogrun]\" title=\"\" src=\"graemlins/dogrun.gif\" /> <br /><b>proud member of the penguin army</b> <img border=\"0\" title=\"\" alt=\"[Smile]\" src=\"smile.gif\" />

02-13-2003, 04:01 AM	#4
Davros Takhisis Follower Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Mandurah, West Australia Age: 60 Posts: 5,073	Hi Moiraine [img]smile.gif[/img] Liberty and freedom can be taken as having slightly different meanings (per the previous poster, bat can also be taken to mean exactly the same thing (ie he gained his freedom / liberty). Compel and oblige are completely different - to compel someone is to get then to do something that they were unwilling (previously) to do. To oblige someone is to agree to do what they are asking of you (in essence to satisfy their request). [ 02-13-2003, 04:06 AM: Message edited by: Davros ] __________________ Davros was right - just ask JD

02-13-2003, 04:31 AM	#5
Moiraine Anubis Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Up in the Freedomland Alps Age: 59 Posts: 2,474	So basically what you are saying is that "freedom" would translate as "liberté", and "liberty" would translate more or less as "libération" ? [img]smile.gif[/img] As for "to oblige" - the word seems closer to the 'old French' verb "obliger" - for example, the polite formula to say "I am in your debt" was "Je suis votre obligé", but it is not in use anymore. Though in the book I read, "to oblige" was closer to "to compel" - it was about a team saying they were obliged to send their report to their boss. __________________ [img]\"http://grumble.free.fr/img/romuald.gif\" alt=\" - \" /><br /><br />The missing link between ape and man is us.

02-13-2003, 05:37 AM	#8
Moiraine Anubis Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Up in the Freedomland Alps Age: 59 Posts: 2,474	Thank you guys ! [img]smile.gif[/img] My spelling is not bad probably because English is not my native language, so I put extra care when writing it ! The more English I read, the more I find that many words sharing roots with French words are actually closer to the 'old-French' meaning than the current meaning. Funny. Maybe I should take a course in Old French and speak it there ! Je suis votre obligée. deep cursty __________________ [img]\"http://grumble.free.fr/img/romuald.gif\" alt=\" - \" /><br /><br />The missing link between ape and man is us.

02-13-2003, 06:01 AM	#9
Masklinn Avatar Join Date: January 12, 2003 Location: Paris, France Age: 44 Posts: 594	I found this explanation here : "In 1066 England was conquered by William, duke of Normandy, which is in northern France. For several hundred years after the Norman invasion, French was the language of court and polite society in England. It was during this period that many French words were borrowed into English. Linguists estimate that some 60 percent of our common everyday vocabulary today comes from French." This explains why Moiraine [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ <br /><br />-=roaar=-

02-13-2003, 06:08 AM	#10
Masklinn Avatar Join Date: January 12, 2003 Location: Paris, France Age: 44 Posts: 594	And in the text above I found these comparisons : in / en to conquer / conquérir duke / duc north / nord language / langage court / cour polite / poli society / société during / durant period / periode linguist / linguiste to estimate / estimer percent / pourcent common / commun vocabulary / vocabulaire These 2 languages indeed have a lot in common [img]smile.gif[/img] [ 02-13-2003, 06:11 AM: Message edited by: Masklinn ] __________________ <br /><br />-=roaar=-

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