UK Gun laws and Justice? (not a gun debate)

[Masklinn]

Ah MagiK...
Long time no see [img]smile.gif[/img]

Eh I think he deserves his jail time. The guy owned illegaly a gun, someone is dead cause of that, this is enough for me. And the dead person having 20 convictions or more shouldn't be taken into consideration, else we'd have to search and try to understand why he did all that. This also can't justify or attenuate the fact that...well...he is dead, gone, finish. He won't have the chance to be convicted a 21st time or even (and thaz more sad) the chance to be forgiven and to make himself a better life.

Taking a life away is not something we can take so lightly. I saw once this wise sentence in someone's sig : Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

Yeah I know, my english still sucks and you probably won't understand what I'm trying to say. But eh...

*peace*

[img]smile.gif[/img]

[Bardan the Slayer]

To answer your question Magik - the UK is nuts. No we do not have the right to defend our homes. I shall explain.

This is not a gun issue, this is a self-defense issue. If a man breaks into your home, and assaults you with his bare hands, and you hit him with a vase, you go to jail. if he attacks you with a bat and you stab him, you go to jail. If he attacks you with a knife and you shoot him with a legally-held shotgun, you go to jail. Should you go downstairs armed witha bat, you go to jail if you hit him with it.

Not only this, but whould you take any physical action against an intruder in your house, even if it is simply trying to hold him on the floor until the police arrive, then you also run the risk of being prosecuted for assault.

The official police line in the UK is that if you find an intruder in your home, you do not confront him. you let him take anything he wants, and you attempt to call the police. Should he attack you, you are allowed to defend yourself with *reasonable force*, which in the UK has become perverted to something like this -

'You are allowed to retaliate *only* with weapons equal to or less in lethality than those used by your attacker, should he attack you first. Should he not attack you first, you are not allowed to attack him.'

Not only this, but you are not allowed to purposefully obtain a weapon before confronting an intruder. You are only allowed to go for a weapon once combat starts. You cannot bring a weapon with you - you can only use ones that are just lying around that you can reach once combat starts.

The problem with Tony Martin was that he had an illegally held weapon, and he laid in wait for the thieves who had repeatedly burgled his home, and shot them in the backs when they saw him and ran.

However, this masks the simple truth in Britain - you are simply not allowed to defend yourself against an intruder. Should you attempt to do so, not only will the Crown prosecute you for assault/assault with a deadly weapon/attempted murder/manslaughter/murder, but the criminal will also sue you for compensation.

The situation is a complete disgrace. An intruder could break into your home in broad daylight, knowing the law would protect him as long as he did not become violent, and go about the business of removing things form your house. Should you lay a hand on him in an atempt to stop him, he wins. The police will arrive and arrest you.

Oh, I forgot. The official police line to anyone who discovers an intruder is this [paraphrase] - Do not act on your first instinct to protect yourself/your family by pre-emptively striking the intruder. Instead, if a confrontation is unavoidable, discover what the intruder's intentions are by asking him, then call the police. It is our job to deal with intruders, not yours.

This is all fomr someone living in the UK who is absolutely disgusted beyond measure at the way in which criminals are protected by the law, and victims are prosecuted for self-defense.

Oh, one more thing. Should a man attack you with a knife, and you disarm him, and stab him with it, you go to jail. Why? Well, since you took the knife off him, he was technically unarmed, and stabbing an unarmed man is outside the boundaries of 'reasonable force', and you go to jail.

Nice, eh?

[ 06-05-2003, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: Bardan the Slayer ]

[Animal]

Same deal here in Canada. Even if the criminal sufferes any sort of injury such as breaking his leg while in your home, he/she can file suit against the homeowner. Doesn't happen that often mind you, as it would be hard to explain what you're doing there in the first place, but still...

Originally posted by Davros: So you would wish the rule of property to take pre-eminence over the rule of life. No - I didn't use a question mark - I used a statement because you seem very clear on this. The fleeing notion is out because it is against (quote) your core beliefs - have gun - time for consequences. Yes, if you break into my home to harm me or mine or to take those things that We have provided for our welfare, Yes, I will not only kill you, but I will spit on your grave and never once feel any guilt over the doing. If that makes me an evil person, then look upon the face of evil and despair. Seems to me that that view presents many of the "taking the law into ones own hands" paradigms that are the proverbial honey that attracts the proverbial flies of the anti gun lobby. Like I care? As I said, you break into my place, be assured, that you would do so at the peril of your own life. I make no secret of my feelings on this front. Antigun laws won't keep me from using Kalties pickaxe either...unlike her I am not an undersized person and have some skill at self defense. Edit: No disrespect towards Kaltia ment [img]smile.gif[/img] just tryin to make a point.

[ 06-05-2003, 08:18 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

Originally posted by Masklinn: Ah MagiK... Long time no see [img]smile.gif[/img] Eh I think he deserves his jail time. The guy owned illegaly a gun, someone is dead cause of that, this is enough for me. And the dead person having 20 convictions or more shouldn't be taken into consideration, else we'd have to search and try to understand why he did all that. This also can't justify or attenuate the fact that...well...he is dead, gone, finish. He won't have the chance to be convicted a 21st time or even (and thaz more sad) the chance to be forgiven and to make himself a better life. So had the farmer used a pickaxe things would be okie dokie? or should the farmer have waited untill after the criminals (who out numbered him 2 to 1) had injured him before defending himself...or do you believe that he should have fled his home and given his home and possessions free to the intruders? Taking a life away is not something we can take so lightly. I saw once this wise sentence in someone's sig : Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it. Did he "take" a life or did the dumbass just throw his own life away? Yeah I know, my english still sucks and you probably won't understand what I'm trying to say. But eh... I have no problem with your english [img]smile.gif[/img] Im pretty sure you got what you were trying to say out just fine....I just have a different point of view is all [img]smile.gif[/img] and no grudges against you or your opinion. Pax [img]smile.gif[/img] *peace* [img]smile.gif[/img]

Oh my god..please Bardan tell me you are kidding...im am, I.....if that is truely the way it works there......all I can say is that I am glad Im not living there....altho I think this state is starting to lean that way

[Bardan the Slayer]

I'm not kidding. It is probably the area of law in which i most detest my own country, and admire the USA. Well, maybe the whol republic/monarchy thing is in there too.

But yep - it is a complete disgrace, isn't it?

[Attalus]

Timber, I do not pretend to know how the law reads in Texas, but I know for sure that two months ago one of my patients shot and killed a 23 year old man who was trying to break into his house, and he was no-billed by the Grand Jury last week. We take that kind of thing seriously in Texas.

[Donut]

Originally posted by MagiK: all I can say is that I am glad Im not living there..

Look - we agree on something else!

[Davros]

Originally posted by Donut: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: all I can say is that I am glad Im not living there..

Look - we agree on something else! [/QUOTE]Isn't that sweet - so mice to see broad agreement on fundamental principles - anyone ready for a group hug [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 06-06-2003, 06:16 AM: Message edited by: Davros ]