What About the Chechens?

[WillowIX]

The only reason I can think of regarding the media is that the Russian government is keeping a tight lid on. What really astounds me is that the interest has dropped this low. There was a worldwide debate about these atrocities a few years ago but that apparently died down. It could of course be that no western countries have any financial interest in Chechnya.

Johnny, I believe the people who attacked the theatre in Moscow were Chechens, I may very well be mistaken. And not all of the visitors were Russians, and orse (IMO) there were several children in there.

[Chewbacca]

[img]graemlins/offtopic.gif[/img]
I have always wonders where eactly the line in the sand is drawn between revolutionaries/resistance and terrorists.

It reminds me of a piece of graffiti I see on the train into the city: "Resistance is not terrorism." but this is only true, IMO, if the resistance does not use terrorist tactics to achieve its goals. Of course when facing overwhelming military supremecy this is a pipe dream. Desperate people do desperate things.

And to the topic at hand:

Why the Russians can get away with murder and have their cake too? I dunno. That is a really good question...

[johnny]

Originally posted by WillowIX: The only reason I can think of regarding the media is that the Russian government is keeping a tight lid on. What really astounds me is that the interest has dropped this low. There was a worldwide debate about these atrocities a few years ago but that apparently died down. It could of course be that no western countries have any financial interest in Chechnya. Johnny, I believe the people who attacked the theatre in Moscow were Chechens, I may very well be mistaken. And not all of the visitors were Russians, and orse (IMO) there were several children in there.

I know they were Chechens Willow, they said so themselves in the little interview the gave to the press. But i don't know if we must share them in the same corner as al qaeda and other muslim extremist groups. After all, they are strugling for freedom, which the Russians won't let them have.

from the little footage we got to see about the situation in Chechnia, i can't blame them for hating the Russians. I've heard that there isn't a single family in Chechnia who hasn't lost someone during the two russian invasions.

[Donut]

Originally posted by MagiK: Part of a Blog by David Frum: 20 may 2003

You call it a 'blog' - isn't it actually fron that bastion of fair and honest reporting National Review Online?

Ironic that you should post this today.

May 21, 2003

Birthdays
The former President of Ireland Mary Robinson became only the second United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights in 1999, and turned the role into one of the most high-profile within the organisation — despite finding it one of “the most demanding positions ever created by the international community”. Her tenure was characterised by an uncompromising style that angered governments around the world and included criticism of Russia for reported atrocities in Chechnya and Israel for obstructing an investigation into events in Jenin refugee camp. It was, however, the fallout after her clash with the US over the rights of Camp X-ray prisoners that ultimately prompted Robinson to step down last year. When asked if her successor, a Brazilian diplomat, was expected to be more responsive to American agendas, one US official said: “The short answer is yes and the long answer is yes.” Mary Robinson is 59 today.

Originally posted by Donut: You call it a 'blog' - isn't it actually fron that bastion of fair and honest reporting National Review Online?

Yes David Frum does write for the National Review...He does both regular columns AND his Blog....so your point is?

Does the fact that David contributes to NRO change the Chechnian situation? Are the facts different? Could you perhaps shed more insight into the whole western media balckout thing on the Chechnians? Or possibly maybe point out where Mr. Frums blog entry is incorrect?

Are you saying that to comment on anything dealing with terrorism will be ironic on this date? Inquiring minds want to know.


Edit: Just FYI for those who do not know a BLOG is a Web Log a sort of online Diary. People have some outfit host their log entries on line. In this case we are talking about David Frum who is a journalist for among others the NRO...he also keeps his Blog on NRO (why not? he gets the space free)

Edit 2: Can anyone tell me the difference between a Commisioner and a "High Commissioner"? I am pretty sure it doesnt have anything to do with sobriety.

Edit 3: Just wondering again [img]smile.gif[/img] Donut you seem disdainful of NRO...could you give any proof or examples of the NRO reporting false information? They may be biased, but to my knowledge no one has accused them of falsehoods or wrong doing.

[ 05-21-2003, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Donut]

Originally posted by MagiK: Yes David Frum does write for the National Review...He does both regular columns AND his Blog....so your point is? Does the fact that David contributes to NRO change the Chechnian situation? Are the facts different? Could you perhaps shed more insight into the whole western media balckout thing on the Chechnians? Or possibly maybe point out where Mr. Frums blog entry is incorrect? Are you saying that to comment on anything dealing with terrorism will be ironic on this date? Inquiring minds want to know. Edit: Just FYI for those who do not know a BLOG is a Web Log a sort of online Diary. People have some outfit host their log entries on line. In this case we are talking about David Frum who is a journalist for among others the NRO...he also keeps his Blog on NRO (why not? he gets the space free) Edit 2: Can anyone tell me the difference between a Commisioner and a "High Commissioner"? I am pretty sure it doesnt have anything to do with sobriety. Edit 3: Just wondering again [img]smile.gif[/img] Donut you seem disdainful of NRO...could you give any proof or examples of the NRO reporting false information? They may be biased, but to my knowledge no one has accused them of falsehoods or wrong doing.

My point is that this article was from NRO See!. As for the facts being wrong - what facts?

He claims there is a media black out - there isn't, I was reading about Chechnya this morning. I've read about Chechnya virtually every day this month Do a google search for "russia condemed chechnya"

"endless volunteer apologists and eager, credulous audiences" Pure subjective hyperbole!

"In fact, they probably killed half the Chechen population" In fact they probably That's great journalism!

And so to my comment about the irony of you posting on Mary Robinson's birthday. Frum claims "yet there is little condemnation or even interest in what Russia is doing. Odd again. " Mary Robinson condemed the Russians whilst she was UN High Commissioner for Human Rights. That's why it's ironic.

Russia has been condemned in the UN on numerous occasions. I would suggest that you and Mr Frum haven't noticed because of the somewhat parochial output of the US media.

Here's a link to the BBC timeline of events to assist.

Thank you for posting another article from the NRO - you have reminded me that I have to buy toilet paper tonight.

[ 05-21-2003, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: Donut ]

[Davros]

Ray, National Review Online is a right wing paper that exists to discuss right wing agendas and be read by right thinking people of like nationalistic right wing frame of mind. I don't object to its existance, its reason for being, those who read it, or the messages it conveys - it serves a purpose in that it displays what the audience that reads it, wants to see and read.

Let's not pretend however, that NRO is a credible objective source. It is basically commentary flavoured to show one side of the argument only. You may well see your NRO "news" sources as quite logical and valid, but there will be those of us (whoops - declared my hand there [img]smile.gif[/img] ) who will chose to look at the title and say "hmph, more NRO piffle".

Let's be honest here for a minute - they (NRO) aren't going to win any awards for objectivity and open-mindedness any time soon now are they [img]smile.gif[/img]

Ok, let me get thsi straight...Donut...you are claiming that the UN and the EU are taking the same steps and coverage for the Chechens as they are for the Palistinians? And you are saying that it is only the US that doesn't seem to be covering the issue in the main stream press? I can find many articles on the web about them..but I think the whole point made by David is that the mainstream outlets don't seem to be giving it any coverage...ESPECIALLY here in the US. I have not seen a single story this month about the UN's condemning the Chechen oppression. And as for your dismissive attitude toward the "Journalism" ...it is labeled as "David Frums Diary" is it not? It appears to me that his is posting his musings and thoughts on the issue.


Davros [img]smile.gif[/img] Ok, yes what you said about the NRO when describing it..applies if you are talking about US Left and Right..and maybe Aussie Left and Right...I understand though that these descriptions do not apply in western europe...there seeem to be big differences in left and right there. IN the mean time....I started this thread from an Online Diary of musings (By David Frum). I think he has made some valid points and has highlighted a serious issue. Im not sure what his polotics have to do with the reality of the situation.

Note...IM asking why more attention is not being paid to those people..Donut says he reads about them evey day but didn't share any of the insights he has gathered from those readings. As far as I can tell one person quit the UN post due to her not getting her way on several issues, the Chechens being one of them.....so where is the rest of the UN Human rights crowd? Where is the hue and cry?....or are they only fit of internet news reporting?....or is it just the US media that is basicly ignoring them?

I think the issue of yet another powerful and destructive muslim terror faction (and there are hard ties to Alqueda.) to be troubling. It appears to me that Some european nations have problems with these types of extremists in africa..(along with native war lords) and that the terror acts are not only aimed at the US, but seem to be happening to other western nations as well.

Am I being racist or paranoid or too doomsdayish about this? or do you think there could be a major threat to western nations?

[Davros]

[quote]Originally posted by MagiK:

They may be biased, but to my knowledge no one has accused them of falsehoods or wrong doing.

I am wondering how is the one not the other? Is bias in reporting not a misrepresetation of the facts to flavour a case? This can be done by favouring one half of the case, neglecting to discuss alternate views, emphasising some facts to the detriment of the true picture, ommiting important details.

If the writer has done any or all of those things while not actually telling an outrageous untruth - how should they be judged? Are they really being truthful - or are they really guilty of mass deceit?

Originally posted by Davros: Let's be honest here for a minute - they (NRO) aren't going to win any awards for objectivity and open-mindedness any time soon now are they [img]smile.gif[/img]

I thought about this and...well Open-mindedness...perhaps not...but not being open minded does not mean that you cannot be correct about the issue....it may keep you from seeing another side but thats a different issue. Objectivity...again....I have seen some of the articles posted on NRO be pretty factual and to the point....where does objectivity start and truth end? NRO is like any organization made up of journalists each with their own biases and prejudices...NRO has some strongly anti-euro types writing for them...but that does not preclude them from printing the truth..or bringing up valid points.


To be fair though...there are several organizations that I too dismiss out of hand...(several out of the San Francisco area) so I guess I can see your point.
fair enough I suppose Donut has the right to view the NRO stuff as "piffle" [img]smile.gif[/img] Ive always liked that word [img]smile.gif[/img]