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Old 09-16-2001, 07:49 PM   #221
MagiK
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Ya know it never fails to amaze me that it always people who were born into, raised and educated in the west who see it as such a failure and horrible culture. THese people who would be shot and killed, imprisioned and/or tortured just for having said even half of what they post here if theyr were in these so so superior middle eastern and eastern countries....If the west sucks so badly why not emigrate to Syria or Iran? Im sure they would be glad to have anyone who wanted to go there. Just wondering of course. Anyone have a decent answer?

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Old 09-16-2001, 08:03 PM   #222
Fljotsdale
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Quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:

*Sigh* I wasn't being literal about the high explosives, what I endevoured to express was that some times you do need to kill a rabid dog to protect the greater populace. Its a metaphor, I know we aren't talking aobut literal dogs here. As for the terrorists, sorry they deserve to be dis-integrated, there is no socially redeaming value in a person who would blindly kill men, women, children and innocents of all types just to hit his target, that constitutes a "rabid dog" to me. I know you don't support what happened so Im not sure why you felt the need to defend that type of extremist nut case. ahh well at least Im not confused any more, and after this weekend small victories are all I need.
[/B]
Errrmmm.... I didn't think I WAS defending 'em!

Quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
Ya know it never fails to amaze me that it always people who were born into, raised and educated in the west who see it as such a failure and horrible culture. THese people who would be shot and killed, imprisioned and/or tortured just for having said even half of what they post here if theyr were in these so so superior middle eastern and eastern countries....If the west sucks so badly why not emigrate to Syria or Iran? Im sure they would be glad to have anyone who wanted to go there. Just wondering of course. Anyone have a decent answer?[/B]
Errrmmmm.... I didn't say anything like that, either! The West DOES suck, in many ways - especially with regard to our apallingly predatory capitalist system - but some other places suck MUCH more. I wouldn't live anywhere but England, myself!

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Old 09-16-2001, 08:11 PM   #223
MagiK
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You do realize ALL life is predatory...right?? you do understand the concept of the food chain and all that? Well At least the west DOES in general acknowledge that human life is somewhat more important than your average hotdog
and that to indicriminately kill others is generally a bad thing. Capitalism is not evil, or apalling. It is a system that rewards hard work and discourages laziness. Yeah it needs tweaked here and there but Apparently it has only been really implemented for a little over 200 years, so give the US some time to tweak further, and who knows the system may get fixed. In the mean time the European and other general localities over on that side of the pond have had many many centuries to find a better system...Don't see any on the horizon..unless someone is hiding it from me. Which would be par for the course, some silly sod sets up a Utopia and then forgets to invite me the story of my life I tell ya, it's such a shame

And here I thought that lady Fljtosdale was scandinavian in residence and here you are hanging out in the UK hehehe the things I learn on Sunday nights.

may peace be on you Lady Fljotsdale you gave me some diversion this eve and you always make me think (however painful that may be)

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[This message has been edited by MagiK (edited 09-16-2001).]
 
Old 09-16-2001, 09:55 PM   #224
Diogenes Of Pumpkintown
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Quote:
Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:


However, the point I want to make here is a lot of this terrorist activity was funded by a lot of very misguided IRA sympathisers in the USA. Does that mean we should go and bomb the hell out of Washington or New York? Well, I guess it does, if we go by the rationale that Dubya is currently using.


The world is not controllable, and Fortress America is a figment of polical imagination. The more you threaten and attack, the more resentment and hatred will be bred, the more terrorists will appear, eager to take their places as heroes in the sight of much of the population (especially the young).


Just quoted a small part of your post, Silver Cheetah, but the whole thing was outstanding. *Applauds enthusiatically and shouts agreement*
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Old 09-16-2001, 11:12 PM   #225
Fljotsdale
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Quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
You do realize ALL life is predatory...right?? you do understand the concept of the food chain and all that? Well At least the west DOES in general acknowledge that human life is somewhat more important than your average hotdog
and that to indicriminately kill others is generally a bad thing. Capitalism is not evil, or apalling. It is a system that rewards hard work and discourages laziness. Yeah it needs tweaked here and there but Apparently it has only been really implemented for a little over 200 years, so give the US some time to tweak further, and who knows the system may get fixed. In the mean time the European and other general localities over on that side of the pond have had many many centuries to find a better system...Don't see any on the horizon..unless someone is hiding it from me. Which would be par for the course, some silly sod sets up a Utopia and then forgets to invite me the story of my life I tell ya, it's such a shame

And here I thought that lady Fljtosdale was scandinavian in residence and here you are hanging out in the UK hehehe the things I learn on Sunday nights.

may peace be on you Lady Fljotsdale you gave me some diversion this eve and you always make me think (however painful that may be)

You made me laugh as well, MajiK! Would Utopia be great or would it be boring? Can never make up my mind!

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Old 09-17-2001, 12:29 AM   #226
Diogenes Of Pumpkintown
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Quote:
Originally posted by Liliara:
Have you even bothered to pay attention to the fact that almost the whole world is with us in this?

By the way, I'd be curious to know if you think we should play, say, hopscotch with terrorists just to keep them from getting MAD at us. Heaven forbid we tick anyone off, they may bomb us. Next time you piss someone off, or that you hate someone, will you bomb them too? If you do, is it justified? I'd hate to be your neighbor!

With us in what exactly? Bringing the immediate perpetrators to justice? Sure, as am I.

But not necessarily with us in other ways or for other actions.

No, I don't think we should play hopscotch with them to keep them from getting mad at us. I am very much aware that our insult and injuries to them run far deeper than neglecting potential hopscotch partners.

You are trivializing what the US has done to the peoples of the Middle East by your sarcasm about not doing anything to anger them, as if we were talking some minor playground injury here instead of the deaths of hundreds of thousands directly or indirectly caused by the US since World War II in the region.

As for your comments about not wanting to be my neighbor, you seem to be misunderstanding my position. As a general rule, I certainly do not condone the bombing of anyone.

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Old 09-17-2001, 12:40 AM   #227
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Taliesin:
)
Quick question for you Dio. Being a prosecutor. Do we have enough evidence to get Bim Ladin to the Grand Jury yet?

Also on the lighter side (this is for John D., Dio (Didn't Ozzie have a guitar player by that name? You didn't like Ozzie Osbourne growing up did you? This might explain you choice in occuption. Kidding! Kidding! ), and any other of you SEC fans out there. Did you happen to notice when we (Tennessee) now play Florida this year? After Florida State!!! Last game of the regular season. We might have a shot at them!


I don't know what credible evidence we have yet. In any case, getting an indictment from a grand jury is no big deal. A very low standard is required for that. The far more critical question is whether there is enough evidence to convict.

Regarding SEC: hmmm . . . yes, that would seem to be better for you guys. We still haven't found a replacement opponent yet. Our canceled game was non-conference, and the remaining open dates are incompatible with that team, so we are looking for another opponent.
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Old 09-17-2001, 07:46 PM   #228
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Quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:

Nice sentiments, but all I see here is an idealistic unrealistic view of the human animal. It isn't the western culture that turns the middle eastern despots into despots. If it were all western countries would be just the same as Syria, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan and others. The fact of the matter is, and as unappealing as it may be to you, there are EVIL people in the world and they do not value human life. It isn't the western powers who have MADE these people what they are. They are what they are because they are evil and no amount of reasoned talking, no amount of rational discourse will change it. If you look it is radical, religious, islamic fanatics who are perpetrating a lot of the evils and you will never be able to rationalize with a religious zealot.

Thats it, end of story. The truth is, Destroy evil when it rears its head..yes there are more subtle evils in the west, but subtle evils need not be blasted with High Explosives, you may excise it through the legal systems. The West is NOT the problem. The west is the salvation of humanity if things go right.

It is in the west where people are educated into the ideals that say, peace can work.

Also note, I am not defending the USA Im speaking of all western societies.

Good lord, MagiK. Read some history, do. (Preferably history not written by the victors, which has a tendency to miss the odd important, but crucial point).

On your point about despots and tyrants, no, I am not putting all the blame on the West for their actions and existence. I am putting some of it, however. In the majority of cases, past actions taken by Western countries have contributed to the creation of the conditions in which tyrants flourish.

It cannot be denied that America, with oodles of help from Pakistan, (just to take a fr'instance), created the Taliban, who have been oppressing the Afghans who don't agree with them for lo, these many moons.

It cannot be denied that huge numbers of people in the Middle East are deprived of democracy by disgusting regimes which are often funded AND ARMED by the West to suit their own strategic aims. (If you don't like these filthy regimes, DONT SELL THEM F*CKING ARMS! Same goes for Britain and other Western countries, by the way, just in case you think I'm America bashing here.)

If you want to be champions of democracy, then why support regimes such as that in Saudi Arabia, which have no respect for democracy? The Israeli thing is not particularly clever either, and is at the root of many of the problems. Why persist in supporting Israel's illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza? Without American funding, support and arms, they wouldn't be where they are now, (and you almost certainly wouldn't be in the position you are in now. It's a major contributory factor.)

And yes, there are evil people in the world. What do you mean, 'they are what they are because they are evil'? Come off it. Just out of interest, how do evil people become evil, in your opinion? Is there an 'evil' gene, do you think? Is 'evil' innate? Are some babies born evil? Do you think that evil arises, fully formed, out of a vaccum? ***** I would be really interested to have your view on this.

I have to say I find some of your views simplistic in the extreme. 'War' on terrorism - a fine sounding piece of rhetoric, that, until you examine it a little more closely. Yes of coures, I would LOVE to see terrorism eradicated. But I can tell you this, the American government will not accomplish it the way they seem to be going about it. (A brief glance at history will tell you that.)

Trying to treat the symptoms of a disease whilst blatantly ignoring the root causes gets us precisely nowhere. Tough on terrorism - yeah.....right.... what about being tough on the causes of terrorism? People support terrorists such as bin Laden because their lives are a misery, and they see no other hope. The way they see it, the West has everything, and they have nothing, and the West has contributed to their misery. Kill one terrorist, and a thousand martyrs spring up in his place. Can you not see that?? The conditions in which terrorists breed are still going to be there, but worse than ever, due to your intervention. You aren't going to be doing yourselves any favours by barging in with all your power and might!

In the Middle East, not to mention much of the rest of the world, America is often perceived as promoting a fundamentalist view of individual liberty and free markets, whilst being careless of the huge and growing inequalities between the developed and undeveloped world that they bring in their wake. (This is a whole big subject in itself, which I discussed at some length in the GATS thread.) Much could be done, by America and the rest of us rich Western countries, to change that view. Capitalism doesn't have to promote inequality. Unfortunately, it all too often does. (If you're interested, I can list you a whole list of books, sites and whatnot on this subject, which quote FACTS and FIGURES in relation to global capitalism and poverty in the world today.)

Last but not least, I'd like to say that I find your view of human beings dispiriting in the extreme. This idea that ALL life is predatory and out for itself. I think it's crap, if you'll excuse the term.

The point about human beings is we are INTELLIGENT, at least, that's the theory. (Some far less than others, admittedly.) We have the capacity for self awareness (although some are more self aware than others). We also have the capacity for enlightened self interest, which extends a lot further than personal self interest. Truly enlightened self interest extends to the planet as a whole, to the human race as a whole. Enlightened self interest is creative. It sees that we could do things differently, if we wanted to. We also have the capacity for love, and that alone has the power to change the world out of all recognition, if we let it.

You want to know how to defuse terrorism? Try carpet bombing countries such as Afghanistan with food and medicine. Follow that up with doctors and teachers.... and so on. Right now, they live in misery, and their leaders tell them constantly that it's all the West's fault. Constructive action speaks louder than rhetoric about democracy. Why don't we show them different?

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[This message has been edited by Silver Cheetah (edited 09-17-2001).]
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Old 09-17-2001, 07:52 PM   #229
Djinn Raffo
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Quote:
Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:

You want to know how to defuse terrorism? Try carpet bombing countries such as Afghanistan with food and medicine. Follow that up with doctors and teachers.... and so on. Right now, they live in misery, and their leaders tell them constantly that it's all the West's fault. Why don't we show them different?
I wish it so...I wish it so...I wish it so...
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Old 09-17-2001, 11:27 PM   #230
Diogenes Of Pumpkintown
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Quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
there is no socially redeaming value in a person who would blindly kill men, women, children and innocents of all types just to hit his target, that constitutes a "rabid dog" to me.

Many terrorists might agree with you, since you have just described US and other Western airmen. In the military, it is referred to by the euphemism "collateral damage."

Shall we conclude that all such airmen are rabid dogs who should be wiped off the face of the earth, or that they are just "born evil"?

Magick, there is no need to imagine "evil" men in the Middle east to account for the hostility and hatred that some hold for the US and the West. Even if they were the best of men to begin with, we have given them reason after reason to declare us the great enemy.

Please do read up on the history of the area. From the point of view of the west, it has been since World War I a vast oil reserve that we have sought to keep under our control through any means necessary, including military force and shameful activities of the CIA-- for example the propping up of the last Shah of Iran and his murderous regime, which was the direct cause of popular Iranian hatred of the US and the storming of the US embassy during the popular uprising which swept the Shah from power. US -- Iranian relations are still strained, over 20 years later, because of it.

As Silver Cheetah says, the real, long term answer to stopping terrorism lies in treating people fairly to begin with.


[This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 09-18-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 09-18-2001).]
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