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Old 01-27-2003, 06:37 PM   #41
MagiK
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I won't argue the logic or why you or anyone else should respect my views. All I will say is, that untill I became a father, I was pro-choice, now that I have two children I am pro-life. This is my descision for me and I refuse to argue about it with anyone.

If you can look at a child wether it has been actually delivered or not and just kill it, that is up to your conscience and your god or lack thereof.

I don't know anyone who can justify late term partial birth abortions and I consider those who perform them to be monsters. I have seen the pictures and videos. I can shoot a grown man point blank andnot flinch, but to sever the spine of a newborn or partially born baby is beyond my ability to attribute to a human being.

If the pro-choice people would just admit that they are not pro-choice but really pro-abortion and make a truely pro-choice group who also counsel mothers about adoption and other alternatives besides abortion I would feel more comfortable and not consider them liars and deceivers. Yeah not all pro-choice people are anti-adoption, but most of them wont counsel their patients about it so, they all get lumped together.

There...those are my last words, tear me apart if you want but Im saying nothing more on the subject.
 
Old 01-27-2003, 07:00 PM   #42
Attalus
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Join Date: November 26, 2001
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna:
I remember somthing fronm biology class in H.S. that defined what the requirements for life were. Maybe Attalus can help me out here?
Your list is pretty complete, Hunter. I was going to call Willow on this. Of course the fetus is alive. It grows, cells divide, and we keep pushing back the frontiers of how soon we can take it and have it survive. That is the question really, when can it live outside his/her mother's body? The real problem, as Timber so neatly summed up, is when does it become human, in the sense of having legal rights, and important to us religious folks, a soul? Now, as a Christian, I have read various discusions, mostly old, of what happens to the souls of unborn babies. The Catholic consensus (see here seems that if the unborn child is not baptised, it does not go to Hell but some kind of limbo. Protestants seem to believe that the children, being sinlees (except for Original Sin) go directly to the Godhead. This is what I believe. So, as a Christian, it is not the harm to the child that I worry about, but the damage to the parent. That is why I think that comprehensive counseling should be done for those unfortunate to have an unwanted pregnancy, and all alternatives, including adoption, should be thoroughly visited.
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Old 01-27-2003, 07:05 PM   #43
Timber Loftis
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Quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
If the pro-choice people would just admit that they are not pro-choice but really pro-abortion and make a truely pro-choice group who also counsel mothers about adoption and other alternatives besides abortion I would feel more comfortable and not consider them liars and deceivers. Yeah not all pro-choice people are anti-adoption, but most of them wont counsel their patients about it so, they all get lumped together.

There...those are my last words, tear me apart if you want but Im saying nothing more on the subject.
Sure, I'll be happy to tear you apart. Seriously, though, I thinnk your "pro-choice people would admit" bit is unfair and untrue. It might just be a bit insulting, but hey we're all adults (ahem, well mostly) here, so that's okay.

But, I think most pro-choicers are begrudginly pro-choice because they are forced to choose between two evils:
1. Limiting the freedom of the mother, and
2. Ending a human existence or possible existence, whether or not it is "alive" or "human" at the time.

Given this choice, I think most folks balance the evils and end up falling somewhere around the notion that the mom's choice triumphs, but only early on. Maybe I'm wrong on this, but it's how I get there would get there with my views (if the politics of population theory were cast aside).

Now, I'll give it to ya, and I don't think I've hedged on this, that I'm more of the "pro-abortion / pro-death" group. But, in the end I think I'm a rarity and your view of most pro-choicers is simply not the case.

As for your personal views you stated, I respect them and they seem heartfelt and well-founded. Good show.
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Old 01-27-2003, 08:20 PM   #44
wellard
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Join Date: November 1, 2002
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1. How you voted (of course)

Pro choice only after counciling.

2. Why

A life starts when it's living, ie the moment of BIRTH onwards not conception. this Xweeks and it's a baby or heartbeat/brain activity argument is like chasing your tail (IMHO) a paralised brain dead coma victim lying in a hospital bed is dead not living. an old person bed bound senile and no hope of improvement is also dead and should be allowed youthansia (IMHO)But that is another debate altogether.

3. Whether that conflicts with your religion's stance on the issue

I'm not religious this week... but every time I see Ceric the barbarians sig I question myself..

4. Whether your views change with extenuating circumstances (e.g. you do not support abortion but would support it for rape and incest victims, especially when they are young, or in the cases where the mother's life is in danger).

I would recommend abortion without counciling

5. (just for s*ts and giggles) Whether or not you support the death penalty and how, if at all, you see that relative to your abortion stance.

Life imprisoment (not 20 years) with every day the threat of a bashing and rape is the sort of punishment that should always be. I've allways thought the death penalty was a WAAAAAAAY soft option supported by bleeding hearts. mind you dead prisoners cant sue for wrongfull imprisoment. the cost of all those people on death row that are just waiting for DNA to prove them innocent must be astronomical. maybe I'll leave this one for another debate.

Hope this generates worthwhile debate. I will note I have not posted on this before because it is one of the touchiest subjects out there. But, the level of maturity on this community leaves me hopeful.

Well done everybody.. so far [img]graemlins/smilebounce.gif[/img]

[ 01-27-2003, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: wellard ]
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Old 01-27-2003, 08:42 PM   #45
Leonis
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1. I voted pro life, because that is closest to my personal views, however, if there was a pro life/pro choice button I would have selected that one.

2. Why? Because morally, I am against abortion but I also understand that they have and will always happen - IMHO it is far better for it to be performed in clinical conditions with the support of councelling and the community. I do believe that education and pre choice (not getting pregnant where possible - ie. contraception) needs to be a part of this system.

A pregnancy resulting from rape is tough. My wife and I have decided that no matter what the circumstances are, we would not consider abortion an option. We feel that it is up to the individual to make their decision - between them and their morals, but we believe we also have the right to disagree with the act of abortion.
No picketing clinics from us though.

3. Whether that conflicts with your religion's stance on the issue? No. I don't believe so. My religion - Christian - tells me that God gave everyone a free will and they shall be judged accordingly. It is not up to me to judge and as I hardly know everything, there are possible circumstances in many areas where I feel they are wrong but God judges differently.

4. Answered above.

5. I do not support the death penalty but consider that a different issue.

MHO is that life begins at conception. And therefore all foetus' have the right to life. I see abortion seperate from murder (as defined by law) because of the grey issues of mother-at-risk, and rape.

The other issue I worry about, is that I believe fathers should have a voice when it comes to abortion, but again this is circumstantial - ie: a rapist should not, a one night stand probably not, but a long term partner should.
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Old 01-27-2003, 08:52 PM   #46
cormack
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Join Date: September 17, 2002
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WoW! You guys know how to discuss this subject very calmly around here! Such a touchy item to talk about for sure. You all have my respect for keeping it cool. [img]graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

I did not vote because I feel if I did I would be untrue to my feelings as a whole in this matter. Pro-life means no abortions whether it be by pill or surgical removel. I cannot see the medical field ever discounting this type of procedure as illegal. Should we go back to the times where mothers lose their lives giving birth, have no choice in their lives. no

I am a Christian and truly beleive this to be a family moral issue. I do beleive in adoption thow, but the doors are open for those that choose this option. Fortunatly it's not for me to judge. imho-
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Old 01-27-2003, 09:54 PM   #47
Sir Krustin
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Good job keeping this civil, guys. I've been kinda avoiding this thread, but it looks interesting.

1. How you voted (of course)

Pro-life

2. Why

Life is sacred, and the lives of defenceless children are the most sacred of all. Yes, the mother's control over her own body is important - but if she didn't want to have a child, she shouldn't have engaged in procreative activity.

3. Whether that conflicts with your religion's stance on the issue

None, really.

4. Whether your views change with extenuating circumstances (e.g. you do not support abortion but would support it for rape and incest victims, especially when they are young, or in the cases where the mother's life is in danger).

I have very little consideration for extenuating circumstances. Only in cases where the mothers life is threatened would I support it - and then only if the mother chose death for her child.

I must admit that Attalus made some good points, though. In the protestant denomination I attend, children are considered heaven-bound until they are old enough to decide for themselves what they want to do with their life. (let's leave that age nebulous right now, but 13 would be a good guideline) up until that point, then their death would matter less in that respect. So I guess I could accept a mother aborting her child in cases of rape and incest - but definitely not as a means of contraception. As others have stated, counselling should be mandatory. I've met young women who have severely regretted, after the fact, what they did to their unborn child.

One thing that makes me a little bit more pro-choice is the matter of government interference in our lives. I'm very much a libertarian when it comes to government, and I also believe in the separation of church and state. On the flip-side, if government chooses to defend life (ie, protect society from murderers) then shouldn't it also protect unborn children?

5. (just for s*ts and giggles) Whether or not you support the death penalty and how, if at all, you see that relative to your abortion stance.

I do support the death penalty, but only in cases where the doubt is miniscule. I there is any doubt whatsoever, then the penalty should be life in prison. Also, whether or not the individual in question is deemed worthy of rehabilitation is a worthy concern; if s/he is an unrepentant, hardened criminal then do 'em.
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Old 01-27-2003, 10:28 PM   #48
/)eathKiller
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isn't murdering an unborn child like murdering a human being htat's all I'm saying, I suppose it is the parents choice if they should want to have a kid or not but if they end up with a child they should just birth it and give it away...
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Old 01-27-2003, 10:53 PM   #49
Sir Taliesin
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Join Date: March 4, 2001
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Cerek, you come as close as anyone to my feelings on the subject. Before we had children, I was pro-choice. Now that we have three kids, my thoughts on this have changed, partly because I've found CHRIST in my heart. Now I'm pro-life, but I understand the pro-choice opinion as well, especially from a woman's point of view, since more than likely they are the ones that are going to have to raise that child. I voted undecided. I could never tell a woman she didn't have that right to choose.

Lately I've had several morality issues to consider in my life, one of which is capital punishment. Again, I used to be for capital punishment, but now I'm not so sure. If I were the one making that kind of descision, it would have to be on a case by case basis. Like Aelia, I favor life with out parole... ever.
For example, had it been left up to me, Timothy McVeigh would have been put into a padded room with pictures of all his victims covering the floor, walls and ceiling, with the light on all the time, so he could be reminded all the time, just exactly what he did. I can think of no greater punishment than that.
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Old 01-27-2003, 11:12 PM   #50
Gammit
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Join Date: October 26, 2001
Location: Sterling Heights, MI, USA
Age: 40
Posts: 477
1.) Pro-Choice, though I question it from time to time
2.) A few reasons:
-I believe in a type of Buddhist reincarnation. If a fetus is aborted, my
beliefs state that the soul goes back into the spiritual waiting room (for lack of better phrase)
-Although I'm not for abortion myself, I don't think it's my right to
impose my vies onto others
-I don't think it's a government's right to tell a woman what she can do in
this particular matter.
3.) I don't have a fully-defined religion, but the hodge-podge of religions I borrowed from mostly say "yes."
4.) yes, in cases of rape, and the like
5.) am undecided on the death penalty issue

rather boring explanations, but oh well...

[ 01-27-2003, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: Gammit ]
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