Whats the point?

[Merkin]

Barry, I applaud you're having the courage to act on your convictions. And as an activist who woke up politically in the 70's, I understand completely the frustration, depression, and despair you're feeling.

Why do we do it when nobody's listening? Because it's the right thing to do, because for whatever reason some of us have a need to try and make this fucked-up world a better place, because if we don't do it...who will? And because, every once in awhile, someone DOES listen. One thing the movement is just starting to learn is that we don't change the world with agendas, manifestos, platforms, or petitions. We change it by connecting with people, talking to them, hearing them, understanding their concerns and frustrations. Then, when we have connected, we can speak the truths that we see, and have a chance of changing someone's mind, of getting someone involved.

This is going to sound corny as hell, but if you can come to your activism from a place of love for people, and compassion for their shortcomings; instead of rage against the machine, frustration at peoples blindness, and fear for the future, you will be in a much better postion to stay engaged for the long haul. This is coming from someone who burned out completely, and had to find a different motivation to get involved again.

And never forget the good things in life...love, laugh, play...remember that you are fighting FOR something, not just against something.

[Aelia Jusa]

quote:

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Originally posted by Yorick:
You guys are trying to tell me the west IS a super happy paradise?

Right... and how many third world adolescant suicides, female anorexia/bullemic victims are there.

I shared a house with a Sri Lankan visitor for a couple of weeks, and I'm living with two Indonesians now. I have Malay, Taiwanese and Mongol students.

The Sri Lankan said and I quote:

"We don't understand the mental problems of women in the west. The have so much that we want, yet starve themselves."

My issue was not that the third world have it good, but it's quite possible that in many ways they have it better.

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Was that what I said? I didn't mean to say that. I was referring to your comment that you saw a documentary showing that the third world is better off than we are. What I meant was, you can make anything seem postive, and anything seem negative if you show the right bits. I could make a documentary showing what a super happy paradise the west is if I wanted, making sure I didn't include any negative aspects, just as I could make a super postive documentary about developing countries as well. There are extended families, fresh air etc in the west just as there are in developing nations. And yes there might not be youth suicide and anorexia in developing nations, but how much female genital mutilation occurs in the west, how many people die of starvation and diseases caused by unfresh water? The show you saw showed some aspects of the west, and some aspects of the third world, as did the show I saw. But at least in the case of the show I saw, it was biased towards the aims of the producers.

[Fljotsdale]

What an interesting thread! Thanks for posting it, Barry!

I agree with most of the points made by most of the posters! So I don't have a lot to add, really, just personal experience:

I used to be a JW, and as you will know, it is their habit to go from home to home to talk about the bible. I've done LOTS of it in the past! As Yorick said - it is dealing with people on an individual basis, not shoving stuff down their throats, but giving them opportunity to listen if they are willing, or to shut the door if they are not. You can visit the same homes year in, year out, and think no-one pays attention..... then you start to find people that you have spoken to previously and shown no interest, are suddenly asking questions.... suddenly wanting to know more. Seeds sown previously have slowly taken root and sprouted.

The same is true of ANY endeavour that you believe in passionately. People see the passion, and some wonder why. What you are doing, Barry, is sowing seeds. Most will die, but some will take root, some will grow.... you may never know about it, but the seeds will still grow. NEVER GIVE UP OR FEEL DEFEATED.

[Yorick]

quote:

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Originally posted by Aelia Jusa:


Was that what I said? I didn't mean to say that. I was referring to your comment that you saw a documentary showing that the third world is better off than we are. What I meant was, you can make anything seem postive, and anything seem negative if you show the right bits. I could make a documentary showing what a super happy paradise the west is if I wanted, making sure I didn't include any negative aspects, just as I could make a super postive documentary about developing countries as well. There are extended families, fresh air etc in the west just as there are in developing nations. And yes there might not be youth suicide and anorexia in developing nations, but how much female genital mutilation occurs in the west, how many people die of starvation and diseases caused by unfresh water? The show you saw showed some aspects of the west, and some aspects of the third world, as did the show I saw. But at least in the case of the show I saw, it was biased towards the aims of the producers.

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That's a fair call. I wasn't using the doco as gospel though, but rather as a way of bringing up a point. A way of looking at situations differently. You're quite right about bias, except that African spokesmen for example complain that ONLY the negatives are shown in Western Media, and this hampers investments for starters.

Famine hits, headlines hit. Famine goes, no-one knows.

How many are aware of Mali's developments in growing food from salt ocean water for example. Fighting back the desert and reclaiming the sahara, making more food for it's people?

Has anyone heard how Congo(Zaire) is doing after they got rid of their dictator?

Good news from the third world is hard to find, so when docos against the grain like this come out I think it's a healthy rebalance, and due to it's unsensationalist agenda, can be taken somewhat truthfully.

("Easy life" Surfers were interviewed in the west too BTW)

(Oh, and Genital mutilation. is limited to some Muslim areas in Africa. There are plenty of non-muslims in Africa, Asia and Catholic South America.)

My issue is not that there are not hardships in the third world. Of course there are! Hardships that should not have to exist. There's more than enough food to go around. The rich - nations and individuals - need to be prepared to share, or risk playing on an even field. It's not in say Britain's interests for the third world to be wealthy, because the island can't feed itself.

My issue is making the mistake of thinking we are happier as a result of the so called creature comforts and easy ride. The statistics speak for themselves. High youth suicide, rampant drug use, the aforementioned eating disorders, family breakdowns, stress disorders. The mental health of the west, despite the riches and seeming lack of hardship is falling apart.

[Epona]

Barry, I know exactly what you mean, but don't give up hope!
I have been a left wing activist for nearly 11 years now, and it does at times seem as though you're swimming against the tide. But things are a lot better now than they were 10 years ago - people are more receptive, even though it doesn't seem like it at the LSE (I have done leafletting there on many occasions, I know what it's like).

I don't participate in the war forum much because I get so mad at everything it is difficult to control my tongue/typing hand!

Don't give up. If you make 1 person think for 5 minutes about an issue they may not have considered before, then what you are doing is worth it.

BTW, I live not far from you, in Hoxton, S. Hackney! It's a small world.

[Epona]

Oh and another thing! If anyone thinks Islington or the LSE is bad, just try being a socialist in Guildford, which is my place of origin!

[Donut]

quote:

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Originally posted by Barry the Sprout:


Urmmmm, Donut? I live on Rosebery Avenue, just off Upper Street. About five minutes from Angel Tube station. (Have I mentioned this before thus prompting the famous Donut subtlety? Can't remember).

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I picked it up in another forum Barry. I work in Essex Road, just down the road from the Angel. I was brought up in Highbury and moved to Enfield five years ago. Too many changes in Islington, the whole place has become gentrified. Half of Islington are poor people pretending to be rich anfd the other half are rich people pretending to be poor. I don't expect you remember the days when we were known as 'The Peoples Republic of Islington' and the red flag flew over the town hall.

[Silver Cheetah]

quote:

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Originally posted by Yorick:
You guys are trying to tell me the west IS a super happy paradise?

Right... and how many third world adolescant suicides, female anorexia/bullemic victims are there.

My issue was not that the third world have it good, but it's quite possible that in many ways they have it better.

My mother grew up in Tanzania, East Africa. My whole family, Uncles etc. speak glowingly of their time in Tanzania, Rwanda, Burundi and Zaire. They backed up the sentiments of the show.

Does slaving away for that new T.V. flashy automobile, small apartment above smog choked traffic with grey skies while watching/reading constant messages in the media that you are behind financially, behind romantically, uglylier than a supermodel, not advanced enough in your career, really make you happier than someone in the third world?

As I said, I personally know some, and it entirely depends on ones personal outlook. There is good and bad in every life, in every nation. We tend to normalise the dangers and hardships around us - better the devil you know than the one you don't.

In no way does that mean that we shouldn't fight for better conditions in the third world.

Neither should we pity them.

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Yorick, I don't think the West is a super happy paradise, that isn't what I said or implied at all! In fact, I'm right there with you on all the points you make in your 'slaving away' paragraph.

However, it's relatively easy for people to stop buying into all that shit, if they want to. Just takes a big shift in attitude, and a bit of awareness. (Well, not quite that easy but you get my gist). Not so easy for third worlders to get out from under the multinationals, the legacy left by colonialism, and the many current brutal and repressive regimes (which last comes under the heading of legacy left by colonialism, in all too many cases....._

All these Western problems you describe we have created for ourselves - they are inherent in the way that capitalism works, as you know well.

Happy contented people who are totally content with who and how they are and who don't feel they need branded products to make them worth something, or make them whole - well, what sort of a consumer is that kind of person going to be? What price multinational profits then?

It's all part of the same crap, is it not? Much of the misery, not to mention environmental desstruction in the third world comes down tothe ■■■■■■■ multinationals - those very same chappies who are spending billions on adverts to get us consumers to spend on their brands.

They do this by using increasingly clever advertising to create desire for things we dont want and dont need, in a lot of cases. Or didn't til they came up with all these 'good' (ie. persuasive in the context of our rather pathetic and sick society) reasons why we should.

Getting rid of my television was one of the best things I ever did. And as for women's magazines, I never saw such a lot of brain washing crap in my whole life. I ocasionally pick one up in the osteopath's waiting room - my god! (Did I really read them when I was younger? I did. Funny how some things you don't really see til they stop being a taken for granted part of your life. Women's magazines are one big sales tool - and that includes about 90% of the articles. It's shameful. And now there are men's magazines too - that work exactly the same way.

You can see why companies refer to human beings as consumers, can't you. That's all we are, these days, most of us.... Certainly that is how they see us. Everything in terms of selling product, buying product. How many activities survive outside of product buying? There's not a lot left, is there.......

[Barry the Sprout]

quote:

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Originally posted by Epona:
Oh and another thing! If anyone thinks Islington or the LSE is bad, just try being a socialist in Guildford, which is my place of origin!

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This is getting really wierd! Not only do I live in Islington term time but I am actually from Farnham! You are really starting to scare me Epona.

And Donut as well actually. Where do you live in Enfield? My dad lives there (parents are divorced) in the Bush Hill Park area.

[Epona]

quote:

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Originally posted by Barry the Sprout:


This is getting really wierd! Not only do I live in Islington term time but I am actually from Farnham! You are really starting to scare me Epona.

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Farnham eh??
Heck, I scare myself sometimes ..... *cue Twilight Zone music*