Is the HARM spell to powerful?

[wellard]

Is HARM the most powerful spell in the game. Sure there are spells of a higher level but is there any that can really match this spell? Is it indeed to powerful a spell to be given at the 6th level?


Spoiler

Spoiler


King Stroth, 381 points of damage down too 1d4, no problems

Klauth, the baddest monster in faerun (their description), circle of doom while not hostile and then bam!!! Harm spell him from full health down to 1d4 of life left (not 100% sure of the exact points) then a quick hammer of gods to finish him off, too easy.

Then after getting my reward off Gorgotha the gold dragon, I thought what the hell, and just slapped her while still friendly with harm **** and 529 points of damage with the one spell she was no longer a dragon but a sitting duck.
529 points of damage!!!

C'mon guys you have to agree this spell is waaaaaayyyyy to powerful [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img]
Do you think that there is another spell as powerful at this stage of the game if not the whole game?

[ 04-10-2005, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: wellard ]

[T-D-C]

Harm can be extremly powerful IF you can make the touch attack.

I think with the change from 3.0 to 3.5 they did nerf Harm a bit so it will be interesting to see how this is implemented in NWN 2.

[Legolas]

Harm? Certainly. (Mass) Heal is as bad for undead.

Unless the creature has a resistance (Negative Energy Protection, Shadow Shield) or a very high regeneration rate, Harm and a follow-up with, say, Searing Light is going to be lethal.
Also, a single level of one of the mage classes can get you Truestrike, which gives you +20 on your to hit roll for just long enough to help the touch attack.

Though Negative Energy Protection is very powerful for its level too, defensively. It doesn't make you immune to disease and poison, but it does keep their negative effects away. It also stops necromantic spells from Negative Energy Ray (1) to Wail of the Banshee (9), and has a few other perks as well. Not bad for a level 3 spell.

[wellard]

Originally posted by T-D-C: Harm can be extremly powerful IF you can make the touch attack. I think with the change from 3.0 to 3.5 they did nerf Harm a bit so it will be interesting to see how this is implemented in NWN 2.

Intresting, but not suprised,any details on how they changed it?

[wellard]

Originally posted by Legolas: Harm? Certainly. (Mass) Heal is as bad for undead. Unless the creature has a resistance (Negative Energy Protection, Shadow Shield) or a very high regeneration rate, Harm and a follow-up with, say, Searing Light is going to be lethal. Also, a single level of one of the mage classes can get you Truestrike, which gives you +20 on your to hit roll for just long enough to help the touch attack. Though Negative Energy Protection is very powerful for its level too, defensively. It doesn't make you immune to disease and poison, but it does keep their negative effects away. It also stops necromantic spells from Negative Energy Ray (1) to Wail of the Banshee (9), and has a few other perks as well. Not bad for a level 3 spell.

That truestrike spell would make an ideal pairing for the spell. Is it a non agressive spell? (blue foes do not turn red) if so it would be unbeatable methinks. However the cleric has quite high attack throws compared to a mangy mage so the clerics chances are still very high of obtaining a touch.

Neg energy does sound usefull indeed as a defensive spell.

[Legolas]

The cleric also has access to all the basic attack bonus enhancing buffs such as Prayer, Aid, Bless, Battletide, Bull's Strength, Divine Favour, and so on. They are perfectly capable of making successful touch attacks without wizad levels, but if you want uber, a +20 attack bonus to a spell removing all but 1d4 hitpoints is just too good to miss out on. There's no reason you can't use it in combination with all the spells above, provided you have the time to cast them all.

Like all buffs, they're not identified as harmful by others. You cast it on yourself, and then you have 9 seconds to complete the harm. That extra-short duration is the only reason it's a level 1 spell.

You'd normally use the Truestrike - Harm combination against anything that can't defend itself from it. Against wizard, sorcerer and cleric players, casting Truestrike gives them enough time to prepare a Greater Sanctuary, Negative Energy Protection, Shadow Shield or Spell Mantle. The first two tend to have a low armor class though, so your harm spell is likely to work without the buff. Against other clerics, well, you'll have to do better than Harm. If only because they'll finish their Heal spell before you can take those final hitpoints.
Finally, if you're going for the Harm cleric, you may want to consider a Quicken Spell for your follow-up, or even automatic ones for your initial Harm spell. Haste is a good property to have as well.

That said, while I've picked up a pvp / character build / powergaming trick or two over time, I really prefer to steer clear of all that. It's not needed in most cases, and when it is, I consider myself to be on the wrong type of server.

[wellard]

Just worked out another 'plus' in its favour. The arm spell is not classed as death magic and so works on those protected or immune to death magic like some (all?) constructs.

Wading my way through SOU right now and have only had to reload once (I was tired and not paying attention while fighting a group of bears and trolls ... the shame)

I’ve crossed the desert and currently finding the winds and still not found anything that harm (if first a +3 morning star) cannot deal with!

I guess I should stop using it as much as I do but in a tight spot what’s a poor cleric going to do? [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img]

I guess TDC is already factoring this into the undermountin mod for when I get there [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

[wellard]

Originally posted by wellard: quote: Originally posted by T-D-C: Harm can be extremly powerful IF you can make the touch attack. I think with the change from 3.0 to 3.5 they did nerf Harm a bit so it will be interesting to see how this is implemented in NWN 2.

Intresting, but not suprised,any details on how they changed it? [/QUOTE]Bump to repeat the question [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img]

[Legolas]

From the System Reference Document v3.5:

Harm Necromancy Level: Clr 6, Destruction 6 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Will half; see text Spell Resistance: Yes Harm charges a subject with negative energy that deals 10 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 150 points at 15th level). If the creature successfully saves, harm deals half this amount, but it cannot reduce the target’s hit points to less than 1. If used on an undead creature, harm acts like heal.

[ 05-07-2005, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[wellard]

Thanks Legolas

Wow! they have castrated it a lot in regards to the maximum points damage. However they have allowed the monster to still take half damage in the case of a will save, rather than no damage like current, so it is still useful.

I have yet to play a mage in NWN is there a comparable cheese spell for them?