:Cry: NWN 2

[SpiritWarrior]

So wait, autobackup is by default enabled, yet isn't recommended? And I thought they were patching this game. They should have either fixed it or patched it so it isn't enabled by default, rather than us having to be told this online. I mean, it matters little to me now, since that experience cost them a customer when I decided to just leave it and go back to a toolset that works. But man, the wonders never cease with this company.

[robertthebard]

It's just like any bug though. You have to be able to duplicate it in order to see what's causing it. Otherwise, it's awfully hard to fix it. While I couldn't have provided any insight into fixing the autosave bug, I could have probably provided them with insight into the corruption bug. In so far as I know, I didn't do anything that should have corrupted my saves. However, I can't pick apart the hard coding stuff to see what in the engine gets unhappy.

[Micah Foehammer]

Originally Posted by SpiritWarrior So wait, autobackup is by default enabled, yet isn't recommended? And I thought they were patching this game. They should have either fixed it or patched it so it isn't enabled by default, rather than us having to be told this online. I mean, it matters little to me now, since that experience cost them a customer when I decided to just leave it and go back to a toolset that works. But man, the wonders never cease with this company.

I agree with you about the autobackup. It SHOULD be set to disabled on default. I guarantee you though if it HAD been disabled by default, there would have been an equally large outcry by those who didn't manually save often enough and lost their mods THAT way.

On a related note, it is becoming increasingly more apparent to me that the large number of bugs being reported recently are in fact, NOT the cause of the NWN2 game. Based on viewing a large number of complaints, it appears that the common thread is that the "bugs" are caused by haks in the override folders. In particular, one hak that alters character appearances was at fault because the modder simply failed to disengage word wrap (or a similiar feature) when making his .2da alterations. When the problem was correct, the bugs disappeared. So, it's not necessarily the game that is at fault but the NWN2 Modding community which is putting out shite. I'm not saying that ALL haks and mods are like that but it's becoming increasingly apparent that a large number ARE at fault. So much so that it is now the first thing that people ask when someone reports a bug.

[robertthebard]

That sucks, but doesn't come close to explaining my issue, since I have no hak files installed. Both of my override folders are empty, well, until last night, when I made a new Prefab for a torch. Not to worry though, I still have your hat, it was in a different module.

[SpiritWarrior]

Originally Posted by Micah Foehammer I agree with you about the autobackup. It SHOULD be set to disabled on default. I guarantee you though if it HAD been disabled by default, there would have been an equally large outcry by those who didn't manually save often enough and lost their mods THAT way. On a related note, it is becoming increasingly more apparent to me that the large number of bugs being reported recently are in fact, NOT the cause of the NWN2 game. Based on viewing a large number of complaints, it appears that the common thread is that the "bugs" are caused by haks in the override folders. In particular, one hak that alters character appearances was at fault because the modder simply failed to disengage word wrap (or a similiar feature) when making his .2da alterations. When the problem was correct, the bugs disappeared. So, it's not necessarily the game that is at fault but the NWN2 Modding community which is putting out shite. I'm not saying that ALL haks and mods are like that but it's becoming increasingly apparent that a large number ARE at fault. So much so that it is now the first thing that people ask when someone reports a bug.

I understand that there may be a percent of mods/haks to the toolset that can cause this, but on this particular occasion I had nothing installed. Then it happend me with the autosave off, also (I had disabled it because it would frickin save every 5 minutes or something and interrupt me constantly). So yeah, there may be that issue, but I do believe that bad coding is most certainly a factor. It was only after I worked for a few hours and lost my work that I said "screw it" and bailed. Like I said, if they say they still can't pinpoint the issue, they could still disable autosave in a patch while they research the problem. Everyone seems to eventually disable it manually anyway for whatever reason.

As some know, I was never terribly impressed by NWN2 as a whole anyways, and have always had the idea (in oversimplified terms) that it is little more than a clumsy rehash and reskin of NWN1 that was released with a typical proprietry toolset. I cannot imagine the frustration the designers went through with the toolset in it's beta stages, as they actually worked on creating the OC mod. But then, they were being paid for it so it probably didn't matter too much. When you are paying *for* it though, things get a little frustrating.

[Micah Foehammer]

Originally Posted by SpiritWarrior I understand that there may be a percent of mods/haks to the toolset that can cause this, but on this particular occasion I had nothing installed. Then it happend me with the autosave off, also (I had disabled it because it would frickin save every 5 minutes or something and interrupt me constantly). So yeah, there may be that issue, but I do believe that bad coding is most certainly a factor. It was only after I worked for a few hours and lost my work that I said "screw it" and bailed. Like I said, if they say they still can't pinpoint the issue, they could still disable autosave in a patch while they research the problem. Everyone seems to eventually disable it manually anyway for whatever reason. As some know, I was never terribly impressed by NWN2 as a whole anyways, and have always had the idea (in oversimplified terms) that it is little more than a clumsy rehash and reskin of NWN1 that was released with a typical proprietry toolset. I cannot imagine the frustration the designers went through with the toolset in it's beta stages, as they actually worked on creating the OC mod. But then, they were being paid for it so it probably didn't matter too much. When you are paying *for* it though, things get a little frustrating.

I'm not suggesting that the toolset problems are caused by the haks. I will concede that I much preferred the NWN1 toolset.

I am thoroughly convinced that many of the GAME bugs ARE caused by sloppy haks and mods. Mis-firing scripts, mis-firing or non-firing cutscenes, and messed up world map waypoints are the most common problems. And almost invariably I can trace them back to a hak or mod that was designed for in game use. It's also possible that they can and DO affect the toolset as well.

[SpiritWarrior]

Originally Posted by Micah Foehammer I'm not suggesting that the toolset problems are caused by the haks. I will concede that I much preferred the NWN1 toolset. I am thoroughly convinced that many of the GAME bugs ARE caused by sloppy haks and mods. Mis-firing scripts, mis-firing or non-firing cutscenes, and messed up world map waypoints are the most common problems. And almost invariably I can trace them back to a hak or mod that was designed for in game use. It's also possible that they can and DO affect the toolset as well.

Well, as far as the game goes, in-game bugs weren't really an issue for me as opposed to sloppy implementation of the code and graphics. I played the OC with zero mods or addons and still it runs horribly. I amn't talking about some odd behavior or script that doesn't fire (which there were a few of them that the game patched), but just the overstuffed feeling the thing has. You can almost feel the old engine buckling under the code and skins. At first I troubleshot it until finally realizing that is actually the way the game plays and I was comparing it to some of the newer (smoother) games out atm and as a result, expecting a far more optimal experience.

I checked it there after a few patches and it was still the same. There are pauses when alot of scripts are run at the same time, or graphical stutters when large spell effects go off. I amn't talking about hugely overlapped vfx, but stuff that goes on in the OC like multiple scripts (resulting in spawn-ins or spells for example). After speaking with a dev on the forums and showing him a video of me running the game, he basically said something toward the effect of "thats' what we expect with an old engine". This was after he troubleshot it with me and finally realized what I was going on about.

The general attitude seemed to be "suck it up, at least you can run the game" or "A slight stutter is nothing, stfu" alot of the forum members seemed to say the same (just a little more rudely). From talking to people there, and testing the game on multiple systems I own, it slowly dawned on me that many of them (being avid D&D fans) had still been playing games like NWN1 or BG2 up to this time, and really had no solid basis for performance comparison other than a game that's about 10 years old. I was out playing WoW and Guild wars and Thief 3 while many people we're still hacking away at NWN's 1 - which is fine and great, but it leaves their expectation level alot lower. It felt like once the game had graphics that looked better than NWN1 what else was there to worry about? Stability doesn't seem to be as big an issue for the NWN2 playerbase and I suspect this has alot to do with it.

Don't you remember the various "This isn't WoW so shut up" threads when the game was released? Because all the people coming from currently popular games like WoW couldn't believe how bad the game ran, and how the camera veered insanely around you as you tried to walk. Of course, instead of help or any kind of admission that perhaps this new game isn't so new and isn't so optimized, they got flamed to bits by the fanboi's who wouldn't hear anyone knock D&D and saw it as some kind of afront to the franchise. I don't understand it, I was playing WoW at the time and waiting eagerly for NWN's 2. When I expressed my dissapointment with it the fans saw red. And I was like "But I am a fan too" But they didn't care. Because a fan would never point out a problem I guess.

[Micah Foehammer]

I remember those threads. lol

I don't know what to tell you. My experience with the game has been TOTALLY different. In several run throughs and starting with the v1.03, I haven't had ONE single misfire on a cutscene or script. The game has played flawlessly for me and at reasonable frame rates. (The only bug I did have was on the original release version - and i was able to restart and recover.)

If I have any complaints at this time, it's over the toolset.

As to why your experience is different? Heck I don't know really. I'm not trying to dismiss your complaints, just pointing out that we DO seem to have had totally different experiences with the game.

DO you happen to know which engine NWN2 is running under?

[SpiritWarrior]

It's a heavily modified version of the Aurora engine, which is what I suspect is the main problem. This is why so many people are screaming "bad coding" at them. Because we have seen the original Aurora run (relatively) smoothly with NWN1 but feel the OE hacked the hell out of it and piled more stuff on it that it was able for. This engine is well over a decade old. Many have successfully upgraded and modified an old engine - in effect resurrecting it, but here I feel they didn't optimize their code properly and are now paying the price.

Understand, I have flawless framerates and zero bugs, but again, my system can only do so much when presented with a game that isn't streamlined enough to handle the entirety of it's own upgrades. I remember them doing a bit of a graphical overhaul on one of the early patches. They actually removed (as in you can't enable it anymore) some quality from the game because I guess they realized it couldn't cope. Maybe i've played too many newer games, maybe i'm a bit spoiled by them, I dunno. But it interferes in my immersion when running the OC.

What was the last game(s) you played before running NWN2?

[Micah Foehammer]

Last games I've played are Oblivion, Sacred, NWN1 and NWN2. LOL

I'm surprised that NWN2 has such heavy system requirements then. If it's just a freaking mod of the aurora engine.

But my system was built specifically with NWN2 in mind.