A genuine Middle East question

[Desdicado]

Can anyone tell me why Israel is allowed to kill it's own citizens and foreign nationals almost every day and Saddam gets invaded apparently for doing this 12 years ago?.

GAZA CITY (CNN) -- At least nine Palestinians were killed and 20 injured Monday during Israeli operations in Gaza, Palestinian security and medical sources said.

The incidents came a day after Israel Defense Forces called "regrettable" an incident in which an Israeli bulldozer ran over and killed an American peace activist at Rafah in southern Gaza.

The Israeli newspaper Haaretz cites Palestinian sources as saying a four-year-old girl, two teenagers and at least two gunmen were among the dead.

This is after Israel sent tanks into a Palestian area.
Killing a 4 year old girl. I have a 2 year old and if anyone sent tanks into my town and killed her I'm damn sure you'd find me in their town next week blowing them right up in return and me also.

Why no UN resolution against Israel?, why no UN observers?.

US double standards?.

A bit off topic possibly but I am trying to set a context and am asking a genuine question that maybe those in the US can answer, why the double standards?. Why give massive support to one and invade the other?.

[Ronn_Bman]

Do you only think the Israeli actions are wrong, or do you also condem the Palestinian homicide bombers who intentionally target Israeli civilians?

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Desdicado: This is after Israel sent tanks into a Palestian area. Killing a 4 year old girl. I have a 2 year old and if anyone sent tanks into my town and killed her I'm damn sure you'd find me in their town next week blowing them right up in return and me also.

Most likely you wouldn't have allowed the gunmen the Israelis were after to have endangered her in the first place.

If she (God forbid and I only use the example because you did) was killed by a Palestinian homicide bomber, you'd probably support attacking those who coordinated that attack.

[ 03-18-2003, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

[Indemaijinj]

I think most people would condemn the bombers too, not only for the sheer atrociousness of their deeds but also for the fact that they do not further the palestinian cause with their actions.

But the main point is that until Israel promises the palestinians a place where they can live in peace without fearing relocation or violence the crisis is not going to stop (unless they succeed in exterminating the palestinians which would lead to an even bigger crisis).

[Ronn_Bman]

If the US didn't VETO a resolution against Israel and offered to not become involved in any force used against them, who would act? Who would force the Israelis to stop and how would they do it?

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Indemaijinj: I think most people would condemn the bombers too, not only for the sheer atrociousness of their deeds but also for the fact that they do not further the palestinian cause with their actions. But the main point is that until Israel promises the palestinians a place where they can live in peace without fearing relocation or violence the crisis is not going to stop (unless they succeed in exterminating the palestinians which would lead to an even bigger crisis).

And the bigger point is that some radical Palestinians will never be satisfied, and will continue to act, so how do you win?

[Thoran]

Suicide Bomber goes ***BOOM*** around Israeli civillians.
Israelis get mad and Tanks go ***BOOM*** around Palestinian civillians.
Suicide Bombers family gets mad and goes ***BOOM*** around Israeli civillians.
Israelis get mad and Tanks go ***BOOM*** around Palestinian civillians.
Suicide Bombers friends get mad and go ***BOOM*** around Israeli civillians.
Israelis get mad and Tanks go ***BOOM*** around Palestinian civillians.

get the picture?

The reason I put the Suicide Bomber first is because right from the beginning it's been Arabs attacking Israel and Israel having to defend itself. Israel is REACTING to hostile actions by Palestinians. Can't say I agree to the degree to which they're willing to apply force, but I can't say I live in constant fear of my kids being blown up either.

Morale of the story...
Tanks don't go ***BOOM*** unless they're given a reason to, the Palestinians have chosen this path.

Perhaps someone should airdrop books on the life of Ghandi or Martin Luther King and give these people a friggin clue. Violence solves NOTHING, they'd have had their nation years ago if they'd followed the simple script used in India.

[Ronn_Bman]

Other key issues are targeting and intention. Homicide bombers intentionally target civilians. Killing innocents IS their plan.

EDIT - For every article like the one starting this post you can find another article about attacks against Israel.

[ 03-18-2003, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

[Night Stalker]

Don't forget that the Israelis have not publically declared that the Arab world will be better once the Palistinians have been pushed into the sea either.

Israel is a nation at war, in their own home, and they have been ever since they were created by the UN.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Desdicado: [QB]Can anyone tell me why Israel is allowed to kill it's own citizens and foreign nationals almost every day and Saddam gets invaded apparently for doing this 12 years ago?.

1) Israel is not killing it's own citizens. The Palestinians are the ones killing Israelis. Israel - in turn - is retaliating against the Palestinians for each suicide bombing attack aimed at innocent Israeli civilians. Then Palestinans retaliate against Israel. Then Israel retaliates, etc., etc., ad infinitum.

As Thoran pointed out, this goes back for many years. I don't know your age, so I don't know if you remember the incident at the 1972 Olympic Games in Munich, Germany. Terrorists stormed into the Olympic Village and massacred a large contingent of the Israeli athletes. After that horrific incident, Israel adopted the original "Zero Tolerance" policy and vowed that any future act of terrorism would be answered with equally brutal violence. This policy actually worked for several years and Israel had a period of relative peace.....then the Palestinians began raising suicide bombers. [img]graemlins/verysad.gif[/img]

2) Saddam Hussein is not being invaded for committing atrocities one time 12 years ago. He has been committing these atrocities continuously for the past 12 years! But that still isn't why he is being invaded. He is being invaded for for willfully and deliberately defying the U.N. resolution calling for him to disarm after Desert Storm. This is a resolution that ALL members of the U.N. signed and that Saddam Hussein himself agreed to. That was the primary condition required for the Coalition forces to "cease fire" against Iraqi troops. He signed the paper, the troops "ceased fire", and Saddam immediately failed to live up to his end of the agreement. As has been stated before, since he never fulfilled the requirements of the peace treaty...we are "technically" still at war with him from 1991.

originally posted by Desdicado: GAZA CITY (CNN) -- At least nine Palestinians were killed and 20 injured Monday during Israeli operations in Gaza, Palestinian security and medical sources said. The incidents came a day after Israel Defense Forces called "regrettable" an incident in which an Israeli bulldozer ran over and killed an American peace activist at Rafah in southern Gaza. The Israeli newspaper Haaretz cites Palestinian sources as saying a four-year-old girl, two teenagers and at least two gunmen were among the dead.

The death of the American peace activist was "regrettable" indeed. It is regrettable that a 23-year old girl with her life ahead of her was ignorant enough to lay down in front of a bulldozer and expect it to be able to come to an immediate halt. From the reports I saw, the bulldozer DID stop in time, but the dirt it was pushing continued forward and buried her. She died before rescuers could dig her out. I respect her right to be a "peace activist", but she willingly put herself in harm's way....unfortunately this time the "harm" could not be prevented.

Originally posted by Desdicado: This is after Israel sent tanks into a Palestian area. Killing a 4 year old girl. I have a 2 year old and if anyone sent tanks into my town and killed her I'm damn sure you'd find me in their town next week blowing them right up in return and me also. Why no UN resolution against Israel?, why no UN observers?. US double standards?.

Why no U.N. resolutions against Israel? Good question. Why don't you ask the U.N.? If any member country had a serious gripe against Israel and thier actions, then they could always request the U.N. to investigate and intervene in the situation - just like the U.S. did with Iraq. If the U.N. declined to take any action, then the member country could always say "I believe the Israeli atrocities are too heinous to be ignored. If the U.N. will not help us, we will go after Israel ourselves." (again, similar to the stance of the U.S., U.K., and Spain).

Of course, there is the minor problem that Israel is not threatening anybody other than Palestinians...and that is only being done in retaliation for attacks made against their citizens...so the U.N. is MORE likely to lend their support to Israel against the disgruntled member. This is NOT the situation with Iraq. In November, 2002...the members of the U.N. unanimously agreed that Saddam Hussein had not complied with the the resolution to disarm and that it was time to send inspectors back in to try and complete the job they started 12 years ago. Even France, Germany, and Russia agree that Saddam Hussein should be disarmed and conceivably removed from power...they just disagree on how that goal should be accomplished.

U.S. double standards? Nope. Israel is an ALLY of the U.S. and has not threatened our military nor our citizens. They do not consider America to be the "Great Satan". They have NOT been torturing, mutiliting, and slaughtering their own citizens. They have been retaliating against very real attacks aimed at thier citizens. Even with the ferocity prevalent on BOTH sides of the fighting between Israel and Palestine, NEITHER side has used chemical or biological weapons against the other.

Saddam Hussein is NOT an ally of the U.S. He does consider us the "Great Satan" and his regime has committed innumerable atrocities against their "enemies" and their own citizens alike.

So - NO - I don't see any "double standard" between our treatment of the two.