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Old 11-18-2002, 10:44 PM   #41
Chewbacca
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Join Date: July 18, 2001
Location: America, On The Beautiful Earth
Age: 50
Posts: 5,373
The whole notion of being "openly gay" makes me think of what it would be like to be "openly black" or "openly female". What if it were "openly christian/muslim/jewish"?

It all boils down to the irational fear of homosexuality. The thinking may be summed up like this: I

"If I don't know a person is gay, that is ok. But once I find out, be it through whim, wit, or folly, It is not ok. That person, who is gay, makes ME feel so uncomfortable with myself that instead of analyzing my fear of what is totally unknown or even taboo to me, I seek to stop them from living out an honorable life serving their Nation."

If the homosexual person is leering at you in the shower, and you don't know they are gay, what difference does it make if they are leering at you and you do know they are gay? They are still leering at you.

I am Bona-Fide hetro-sexual. Some of my good friends in life are gay men, I know a few in the military. They live under veil of constant fear that they will lose their job, their lively hood and their right to serve and defend the nation they love.
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Old 11-18-2002, 10:52 PM   #42
Chewbacca
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Age: 50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sazerac:
Ok, my stance on the copyright situation:

To avoid potential legal problems here on Ironworks, it is best to do one of the two things when citing other works:

1) Provide a link to the article rather than cut/pasting in the post (preferable)

OR

2) If you do wish to cut/paste, provide a single line citation with author's name, website, and news bureau (if applicable). Changing the font color or at least putting italics around the quoted text would help as well.

I'm certain no one intentionally was trying to pass off someone else's work as their own, here. [img]smile.gif[/img] Still, on as public a forum as IW is, it's probably better to provide the proper documentation when referencing a secondary source.

-Sazerac
No prob. An oversight on my part. I forgot to paste the shortcut after I copied it. I was kinda taken aback by some strong language concerning plagerism, but I would have a zero-tolerance for that sort of behavior myself, so I understand.
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Old 11-19-2002, 01:43 AM   #43
Chewbacca
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Join Date: July 18, 2001
Location: America, On The Beautiful Earth
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Quote:
Originally posted by Larry_OHF:
Chewbacca

Your post is obviously copy/pastes of an article you are reading, but you are not posting the reference nor providing a link for anyone to go see for themselves if you are or are not quoting the author the way he/she described it...that is plagarism and is illigal. Please provide links or references with your posts.
Hey, I added the link as well as the source. Sorry for ANY misunderstanding. [img]smile.gif[/img]
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Old 11-19-2002, 03:32 AM   #44
Memnoch
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Join Date: February 28, 2001
Location: Boston/Sydney
Posts: 11,771
Quote:
Originally posted by Iron_Ranger:
Donut I picked up 2 things that could be called Flaming, but no one will do anything as usaual, just like the last time you flammed me.

And there is apparently a reason you think I should care what you think of me. Also I thought I might make a note that I have recived two PMs for two very intelligent members here at IW contridicting your statment about me not knowing what I was talking about.

And the fact you say you know more about the NHL then me is really..funny. If you dont let me quiz you real quick if you dont mind?

Iron Ranger, I just got your PM. I think that at the end of the day Donut and yourself are actually on the same side here about the gay issue, but a typo has caused all this confusion and hurt feelings, etc. Donut's last comment about you not knowing what you're talking about could be construed as a mild flame, borne out of frustration. Donut, you should know better than to do this, you should be the mature one here. You should be setting the example.

Having said that, I notice an insinuation that Donut hasn't been punished for some perceived transgression. Donut will not be banned for a mild flame like this - otherwise we'd be banning a hell of a lot of people daily. This should not be a big deal in the overall scheme of things, and Ironworks is not a concentration camp. One of the main things that keeps this forum running is self-regulation and trust between members and moderators. We trust you guys to sort yourselves out with these minor issues and make sure they don't become major ones. People don't have to like each other - but they need to be able to coexist in relative harmony. If this behaviour continues and turns into a major issue (from ANYONE, not just Donut) then we will start to think about penalties. The rest of you may not agree with those, but you're entitled to disagree - what we do ask is that you accept whatever that decision is and not make insinuations about injustice, etc.

If you would like clarification about a decision/lack of decision then email myself or one of the other moderators on this forum and ask us - politely. We will reply to you - politely - and in the event that you don't like the reply, then have the grace to accept it.

I hope that this helps you all put things in perspective. If this minor issue becomes a major one I will lock the thread, penalize whoever needs to be penalized, and that will be that.

[ 11-19-2002, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]
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Old 11-19-2002, 05:59 AM   #45
Lanesra
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Join Date: March 29, 2001
Location: Twititania, Europe
Age: 63
Posts: 1,221
Quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
When talking about pure beauracratic BS never use the two words "Military" and "Intelligence" in the same sentence [img]graemlins/jamesbond.gif[/img]

As Pro-Military as I am let me relate a lil story for you. First thing you need to know, at the time, the military rated its people on a 4.0 scale, like most schools in this part o the country.

They had this one guy who blew out a knee and could not meet the minimum time for running 1.5 miles in 13 minutes or less. This guy was in a technical field position so the furthest he would ever run would be about 150 feet. His evals were 4.0, he had just graduated top american student from a $65,000 training course (darn canuk beat him for top score) and had been given a $12,000 reenlistment bonus. The base commander kicked him out of the service even though Washington had issued the guy a waiver on the run portion of the PT and his direct superior had verified his importance to the Navy. The commanding officer's reasoning was, "I won't have anyone in MY Navy who cant run at least 1.5 miles!" end of story. Commanding officers have sole discreationary power over giving people the boot.

That guy was me in February of 1990. As big a dick as the guy was, it was really a favor to me in the long run [img]smile.gif[/img] I now make 4 times what I made annually in the service and no one ever shoots at me [img]smile.gif[/img]
Magik, you ever thought of turning this into a country and western song ?. Maybe Yorick can help. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 11-19-2002, 06:00 AM: Message edited by: Lanesra ]
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Old 11-19-2002, 06:24 AM   #46
The Hierophant
Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom
 

Join Date: May 10, 2002
Location: Dunedin, New Zealand.
Age: 41
Posts: 2,860
Quote:
Originally posted by Donut:
Personally I think the Spartans got it right. Possibly one of the finest fighting forces in the history of mankind. Homosexuality was compulsory in the Spartan army! They thought it helped the soldiers to bond.
Heh heh. Sorry to be pedantic, but that was the Thebans, not the Spartans. And then it was only a small, individual division of the Theban army, and they usually got their asses kicked [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 11-19-2002, 06:30 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]
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Old 11-19-2002, 07:54 AM   #47
AzureWolf
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Join Date: May 3, 2001
Location: .
Age: 40
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Hierophant:
quote:
Originally posted by Donut:
Personally I think the Spartans got it right. Possibly one of the finest fighting forces in the history of mankind. Homosexuality was compulsory in the Spartan army! They thought it helped the soldiers to bond.
Heh heh. Sorry to be pedantic, but that was the Thebans, not the Spartans. And then it was only a small, individual division of the Theban army, and they usually got their asses kicked [img]smile.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]Actually I refute that comment [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Maybe the Thebans did it to an extent but the Spartans made it part of the daily life in their barracks. Almost part of their training you could say and yet not only did it not hamstring them in battle but the Spartans were by miles the strongest and most disciplined in Greece if not in history. Puts the early roman legionarres to shame.
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Old 11-19-2002, 10:24 AM   #48
Timber Loftis
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Join Date: July 11, 2002
Location: Chicago, IL
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chewbacca:
The whole notion of being "openly gay" makes me think of what it would be like to be "openly black" or "openly female". What if it were "openly christian/muslim/jewish"?

It all boils down to the irational fear of homosexuality.
First, for some of us (me, at least) there is an agreement with the don't ask/ don't tell policy with absolutely no fear whatsoever of homosexuality.

Second, though, what is it about being "gay" that makes it protectible, like the skin color, gender, and religion you list. What is it the later list has in common that makes "gay" not fit the list. Inalienable characteristics? Historical discrimination? What is it about physically desiring the same sex that places on the pedestal reserved for race, gender, and religion? I'm not being argumentative here, I just want to point out that if you're going to protect a class of people you need to justify why. The Supreme Court has a test for what constitutes a "protected class" but I don't have it right now, and some on-line (non-Westlaw) searches have not turned up a good concise statement of it - though I did happen to encounter a gay porn site that won't close no matter what. I'll look for this test and perhaps post more on it later, but the rest of my morning is busy.

Third, do transexuals get the same protection? What about transvestites? What about pedophiles? Sado-masochists? Is it a lifestyle that's protected or the act of sodomy? Note that sodomy - no matter the gender performing or receiving - is still illegal in nearly half the states. And, the Supreme Court upheld this regarding Georgia in Bowers v. Hardwick (yes, that's really the name of the case ).

Anyway, just some thoughts. If you're going to protect it, define why, define what you're protecting, and draw the limits so as not to open any floodgates as to other things you're not anticipating.

[ 11-19-2002, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]
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Old 11-19-2002, 10:45 AM   #49
Rokenn
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Join Date: January 22, 2002
Location: california wine country
Age: 60
Posts: 2,193
Quote:
Originally posted by Timber Loftis:


Two, let me jump beyond the "should it be allowed" discussion of OPEN gays in the military (I'll note my earlier post explains why I think we should not). (Also note that in-closet gays are allowed.) Assuming open gays are allowed, tell me how to make it practical. Housing and showers for instance - which are communal. Now, must I really shower with someone who lets me know he's gay? Isn't that akin to making me shower with a woman or vice versa - as the "uncomfortableness" of sharing a shower is not based on gender, but on unwanted sexual desires or overtures. If you allow open gays, how do you NOT force yourself into a separate housing situation? Elsewise, why not treat all men & women that same: communal bunks and showers for all (like in Starship Troopers).

Assuming it's philosophically mandated, I still think it is simply to impractical.
Why impractical? My workout partner is gay and we shower together at the gym 2-4 times a week. Big whoop. Are you afraid they are going to go around raping all the hetro guys in the shower or what? And again, why the need for seperate housing? I feel your just creating issues were none really exist.
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Old 11-19-2002, 11:10 AM   #50
Cloudbringer
Ironworks Moderator
 

Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Upstate NY USA
Posts: 19,737
Quote:
Originally posted by Rokenn:
quote:
Originally posted by Timber Loftis:


Two, let me jump beyond the "should it be allowed" discussion of OPEN gays in the military (I'll note my earlier post explains why I think we should not). (Also note that in-closet gays are allowed.) Assuming open gays are allowed, tell me how to make it practical. Housing and showers for instance - which are communal. Now, must I really shower with someone who lets me know he's gay? Isn't that akin to making me shower with a woman or vice versa - as the "uncomfortableness" of sharing a shower is not based on gender, but on unwanted sexual desires or overtures. If you allow open gays, how do you NOT force yourself into a separate housing situation? Elsewise, why not treat all men & women that same: communal bunks and showers for all (like in Starship Troopers).

Assuming it's philosophically mandated, I still think it is simply to impractical.
Why impractical? My workout partner is gay and we shower together at the gym 2-4 times a week. Big whoop. Are you afraid they are going to go around raping all the hetro guys in the shower or what? And again, why the need for seperate housing? I feel your just creating issues were none really exist.[/QUOTE]Would you feel as comfortable showering with your workout partner if it was a woman? I think that's what was being said- that it's the 'sexual' tension or possibilities thereof that are the reason for separate accomodations.
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