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Old 03-05-2002, 12:01 AM   #41
Yorick
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Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
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quote:
Originally posted by Thoran:

Science lists criteria for life, including need to take nourishment, need to eliminate, procreation, etc. There is no separate criteria for humans. I guess my point here is that life begins when all the criteria are met. That would be when the egg is fertalized. But is that really the question here? It seems to me the question is more "when is life valued as human?" To humans, the 'higher reasoning' comes into play, thus creating the problem of identifying when 'life' begins. If we identify ourselves only on our reasoning, then are we human if that is not there? There are many humans who lack the ability to reason logically. Are they 'human'? Do they have a soul? There are animals which reason far beyond some humans (take a border collie, mountain gorilla, a macaw ) Which is more valid? If a fetus is not human until it is born and feeding is not the reason, than are test tube eggs human until they are placed in the womb, then are not until they are removed at term? When we have the technology to carry to term a fetus outside the mother, when does it become human?

Interesting stuff, thanks for making me think. Jen



Whoooh. Very good post Jen. Well said.
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Old 03-05-2002, 02:46 AM   #42
Yorick
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quote:
Originally posted by Evil Al:
This is a very interesting thought, but what on earth would unborn babies dream of? They have no experience of the outside world. Unless of course you believe in reincarnation, you could say they dream of their past lives.


They do have experience of the outside world.

Sound.

Once they have developed hearing they can hear music, speech. Plenty of stuff.

Also It's said that they feel the emotions of the mother.

Dreaming is not so much about what you've seen but what you've felt. The subconcious sifting through stuff, unhindered by concious thought.

Being born itself is supposed to be a major traumatic experience for them.

But how do people ascertain that? It's not like most of us remember (though I've met a few who do remember it) or that crying is an indication. Most cry from getting whacked on the bum don't they?

"Hi, welcome to airbreathing existence" *WHACK*
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Old 03-05-2002, 04:25 AM   #43
WOLFGIR
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Join Date: March 1, 2001
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Being a cynical person I think that life begins when you can survive comming out of the womb. Some due to the fact of how humans evolve into the technical beings as we are, we can help children earlier and earlier. However, we are soon crossing aline when when we are "making life with technology help. Close to what people want to do with genetechnology? So many questions and so many points of view to be taken into consideration. So itīs some time between fertalization and birth more or less. Somewhere between that time the featus grow into a "single" being. How to define it, I donīt think anyone really can. When it is excuse my lack for finer words here people, seize to be a "byproduct" and a creature of itīs own.

Evil Al, Iīm sorry for your experience and I hope you will be able to get to terms with it. Working in a IV unit at a hospital for some months I saw the good and the bad sides of life. Women weeping for their stillborn and women happy for their babies, women happy to have to born a baby into a world they donīt believe in women with guilt for abortion. I hope that you can find peace in enlightning people in your former situation.

I will not go into an argue with peoples beliefs here since I believe in letting people have their beliefs and make their lives from it. Though personally I could never accept some of your argumentations for my own situation, as you probably couldnīt accept mine. These discussions however are interesting since people can share their views and ideas about it. As long as it stays at that.

Yorrick, I canīt answer your question about souls since I more or less donīt believe/havenīt made up my mind about that one! . Cryptic? You donīt even know the half of it hehe!

Edit note, had to fill it out a bit more after reading your guys rpleis..

[ 03-05-2002: Message edited by: WOLFGIR ]

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Old 03-05-2002, 04:53 AM   #44
norompanlasolas
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Join Date: November 13, 2001
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difficult subject. i want to ask a question rather than giving my opinion, though.

lets put on a practical case. if somebody has sexual relations with a girl and the contraception method fails, and she takes the 72hs pill or the pill of the next day (i dunno how its called in english). how do you consider that? has the sperm fertilized the egg yet? cause i understand that it creates a chemical inbalance in the woman that prevents the egg from developing.
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Old 03-05-2002, 06:09 AM   #45
Donut
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Join Date: March 1, 2001
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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:


Whoooh. Very good post Jen. Well said.



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