Philosophy

[Bozos of Bones]

If a tree fell in a forest and there is no one to hear it, is there a sound?

[Xen]

Yes, the tree is sentient and feels the sound of itself falling

[Legolas]

Other.
It sometimes happens that we are the only ones to visit a forest in some time, and then spot a recently fallen tree. If the tree has fallen because we are there, then there is no reason it should not make a sound while the tree is at it. After all, we are there, we could hear it.
The logical conclusion being that
a) trees only fall when there is noone around to see it, or
b) trees only fall when there is someone around to see it, but do not always make a sound. This selective behaviour would lead one to believe that trees are both sentient and very serious when it comes to the matter of making sounds. Or finally, there's option c.
c) Trees don't care if anyone's around when it comes to falling. If this is true then the presence of an ear is of no importance and trees make sounds when falling no matter what.

Cases a) and b) cannot, however, be solved entirely until we fill in another missing piece. For how does one define no-one? Are only humans able to be 'one'? If so, this raises further questions. Do other creatures even exist when there is no 'one' around to notice them? If one should ignore the presence of an insect, does it simply vanish until such a time as 'one' takes to think it back? If this is so, then trees simply are not there when noone is around, and can as a result not produce any sounds. Before we can answer the question whether or not a tree makes a sound when noone is around, we must first discover whether or not there is a world beyond that which us 'one's imagine.
Or is every creature able to detect sound a 'one'? In that case, is a tree ever alone? They should constantly have to provide sounds upon falling, for simple maths will show that there are so many creatures in existance that a tree can rarely if ever fall when noone is around.

When examining case c) the answer is plain, fortunately. Trees always make a sound when falling because that is one of the things they do. There needs be no other reason beyond that. This answer is somewhat boring however, so like most other humans I shall discard that notion as pure fiction.

And with that, the question remains unanswered. But then, it is not the real question you ought be asking yourself, now is it?

[Bozos of Bones]

Bravo, Legolas.
But I disagree about the unpercieved insect. The insect percieves itselfs, therefore it is there. A tree can not percieve itself because it has no intelligent life and thus vanishes and ceases to exist until someone comes who is able to percieve it and it comes back into our existence. Therefore, when we come to a fallen tree which has been grounded the last time we checked, the falling is occured on an infinitesimal amount of time needed to make all adjustments to other trees in the area and is then percieved by us as a fell tree.

[Chewbacca]

Does sound need to be percieved to exist? Sound is a waveform correct?

The sound energy waves expressed by a tree falling are going to happen whether or not a discerning perception device is nearby.

Although I believe trees are sentient, I chose option one because I think sentient reception of the energy waves is irrelevant.

[Bozos of Bones]

You missed the point. It is an old Zen question, before they knew such stuff. I started the thread here so we can all give a bunch of BS like the scientists in the old, old days did and get away with it. It is not intended as a spam site, but as a place to relax. Kinda like Cloudy's Cafe, but emphasized on creativity and the ability to BS to people. Play along, kids.

[ 09-13-2003, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Bozos of Bones ]

[Bozos of Bones]

If trees were sentient an intelligent, wouldn't they have developed their own culture? Have habitats, familys and organisations as us men?
No, gentle ladies and men, if they were intelligent and in such numbers, we would soon be overrun and defeated by the tree-race. But we are still here, on the top of the food chain and that proves my point: the trees are objects to be employed by us in our quest for knowledge.

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Bozos of Bones: If trees were sentient an intelligent, wouldn't they have developed their own culture? Have habitats, familys and organisations as us men? No, gentle ladies and men, if they were intelligent and in such numbers, we would soon be overrun and defeated by the tree-race. But we are still here, on the top of the food chain and that proves my point: the trees are objects to be employed by us in our quest for knowledge.

Well that thinking only has merit if being sentient means being like humans.

Perhaps trees are sentient in ways we havent thought of or cannot comprehend due to our nature....

[Zero Alpha]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Well that thinking only has merit if being sentient means being like humans. Perhaps trees are sentient in ways we havent thought of or cannot comprehend due to our nature....

very true. what if trees think on a different timescale. if you lived for 100's of years, you wouldnt want to percive every moment right. so what if a year to us, is a second to a tree? then it could be scentient, but without need to live it all. they wouldnt even notice us, as who could ever stand next to one tree for a year, much less several.

on the point of culture, trees dont need a culture. if all you needed was water + nutrients + sun and you didnt have to move, would you? trees must have it easy, sitting enjoying the sun and air, impervious to weather. just watching the world go by on a scale we cannot percieve.

[Larry_OHF]

If a man speaks in a forest,
and no woman is around to hear it...
is he still wrong?

[ 09-14-2003, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: Larry_OHF ]