The "War" model

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Yorick: Innocents don't stand by and let people kill others Diogenes. It is quite likely that the strongest allies of the Coalition will be Afgahnis. Certainly they have made gains already in a couple of northern provinces. As I said. The "innocents" will let the police do their job. Those that hinder are no different from those that destroyed 7,000 (not 6,000 as you mentioned) lives. Current from this mornings statistics. Also I do not believe either of you are up to speed on the situation in Afgahnistan. I gained that perspective from reading your post Dio.

I'm not sure what you are saying here, Yorick. Surely you aren't suggesting that the Afghan population as a whole is not innocent? Or are you?

As for the situation in Afghanistan, you are missing the point!!!! It doesn't matter which country we are talking about, anywhere on the face of this planet.

The point is that if we take innocent life in the name of our own righteous cause, we are no better than Bin Laden himself. Do you agree or disagree with that simple proposition?

In any case, I will look for your reply in the morning. It is late and I am tired.

Goodnight.

[Liliara]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: Here's an idea: Read my posts. As I have said repeatedly in this thread and others, I HOPE Bush has the wisdom to avoid what seems to be building. What I am expressing concern about is the possibility of what we might do. Advising caution after the fact isn't going to do much good, now will it? And my fears of what we might do aren't being pulled out of thin air. They are based on knowledge of what we have done in the past, at times when we weren't bent on seeking vengeance for 6000 deaths.

I HAVE been reading your posts, it sounds like you are already expecting the worst. I'm not going to debate with you on what the U.S. has done in the past and why, as it may be just as useless as now, considering your information (or lack thereof). What I would like to know is how advising caution here is going to stop anything. Now maybe if you lie down in front of a B-52 that is deploying... I'm sure it would stop.

Anyway, I don't know what YOU think is building, but it seems to me that the TALIBAN is about to find out that they should have given up bin Laden when they had the chance.

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Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar

LH Member

And you never did think that it ever would happen again, in America did you? And you never did think that we'd ever get together again, but we damn sure fooled ya. We're walkin' real proud and we're talkin' real loud again, in America. And you never did think that it ever would happen again.... (Charlie Daniels)

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: They are based on knowledge of what we have done in the past, at times when we weren't bent on seeking vengeance for 6000 deaths.

I do believe that vengance is not the prime motivator here Diogenes. Yet again you are an American ignoring the world. Are Britain retaliating for the couple of hundred deaths? Is Russia helping because they desire vengance? Is Nato worried about revenge?

Terrorism is an evil that must be prevented to be defended against. The greatest military might in the world could not prevent a handful of men with knives from destroying 7,000 people and plunging the economy in ruins. I have friends who now cannot work as a result. Will revenge pay for his rent?
Prevention is the only defense, and it is this that motivates.



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Liliara: I'm not going to debate with you on what the U.S. has done in the past and why, as it may be just as useless as now, considering your information (or lack thereof).

Hmmm . . . must . . . respond . . . before . . . going . . . to . . .bed.

Liliara, perhaps tonight while I sleep you could enlighten me regarding where you think I am misinformed regarding anything I have said regarding history.

I find your comments to that effect insulting and frankly ridiculous. The worst thing about your case is that it is gross ignorance smugly imagining itself to be knowledgeable.

[Liliara]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: Hmmm . . . must . . . respond . . . before . . . going . . . to . . .bed. Liliara, perhaps tonight while I sleep you could enlighten me regarding where you think I am misinformed regarding anything I have said regarding history. I find your comments to that effect insulting and frankly ridiculous. The worst thing about your case is that it is gross ignorance smugly imagining itself to be knowledgeable.

Just my opinion. I myself like to study very well that which I argue. If you would like to think of my comments as ignorrant, go ahead. I could say something to the effect that you are saying this to save face yourself. Yes, I agree, I don't always have the words to express myself as a diplomat, but do not use this to judge my intelligence level, or what I know about the postings on this board.

As for insulting, those who live in glass houses should not cast stones.

Love ya!

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Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar

LH Member

And you never did think that it ever would happen again, in America did you? And you never did think that we'd ever get together again, but we damn sure fooled ya. We're walkin' real proud and we're talkin' real loud again, in America. And you never did think that it ever would happen again.... (Charlie Daniels)

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: Hmmm . . . must . . . respond . . . before . . . going . . . to . . .bed.

Sleep well friend.

See you later.



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Aelia Jusa]

Originally posted by Liliara: It is impossible to have a debate with people who : D) would let their family be murdered in front of them without raising a hand to stop it if it meant violence 3)If someone came into YOUR house, killed YOUR wife, and then held a gun to YOUR childrens head saying they were next, would you really search for a non violent route to resolve the situation, if it were possible that you could kill the bastard before he could do more harm? On the point of defending your family, this is exactly what is happening now. Our family has been assaulted, murdered. Do we wait for it to happen again because some can't stomach war? That is why a draft is the last resort. It is known that some can't hack giving their lives (or taking them)to protect their families. So we have the brave men and women who do it for them. Not because they are bloodthirsty, but because they see it as a great honor to DEFEND the country they love and those who are unable to do it for themselves.

Liliara, Dio is not suggesting that bin Laden should not be punished or killed. He is objecting to the fact that innocent people are likely to be killed in the process of getting to bin Laden. Your analogy would more reflect his position if you said that the solution to the murderer killing his wife and children was to retaliate in a way that killed a lot of innocent people in the process of killing the murderer.


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Goddess and Sorceress of the HADB, and her sidekick Pink

[Liliara]

Originally posted by Aelia Jusa: Liliara, Dio is not suggesting that bin Laden should not be punished or killed. He is objecting to the fact that innocent people are likely to be killed in the process of getting to bin Laden. Your analogy would more reflect his position if you said that the solution to the murderer killing his wife and children was to retaliate in a way that killed a lot of innocent people in the process of killing the murderer.

Hey Aelia!!!!
Wasn't pointing out anyone in particular!



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Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar

LH Member

And you never did think that it ever would happen again, in America did you? And you never did think that we'd ever get together again, but we damn sure fooled ya. We're walkin' real proud and we're talkin' real loud again, in America. And you never did think that it ever would happen again.... (Charlie Daniels)

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Aelia Jusa: Liliara, Dio is not suggesting that bin Laden should not be punished or killed. He is objecting to the fact that innocent people are likely to be killed in the process of getting to bin Laden. Your analogy would more reflect his position if you said that the solution to the murderer killing his wife and children was to retaliate in a way that killed a lot of innocent people in the process of killing the murderer.

"Innocents" won't necessarily be standing in the way Aelia. The "innocents" will be assisting the US, running to the border, holding shoulder rockets in the armies of the northern alliance, providing information, covertly entering Bin Ladens organisation, and taking bribes to betray him. Any who oppose, condone and support actions that destroyed 7,000 "innocents".

In any case sometimes "innocents" do die when protecting a greater number of lives.

Would the Armed forces have been justified in shooting down the planes before they hit? Will they be justified in doing so again? 200 people die but 7,000 live. Difficult question yes?


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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Lemernis]

Dio, anyone occupying the Whitehouse during such an attack as this has the primary responsibility to do everything within his or her power to see that something like this never, ever happens again. And to whatever extent the U.S. and its estimable allies can do so, to protect the entire western world and all the freedoms that the democratic nations currently enjoy. Please do not cloud the issue with projections about vengence being the Bush administration's primary motivation. The mission here is to be effective in erradicating terrorism, not to simply lash out in anger. To suggest the latter is silly--there is far to much at stake to risk such a thing. That kind of hyperbole is simply playing politics.

[This message has been edited by Lemernis (edited 09-25-2001).]