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Old 11-19-2007, 03:45 PM   #21
Dreamer128
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Default Re: A fine example of modern barbarism..

While I agree that the state occasionally has to protect its citizens against themselves, I do not believe that this function gives the government the right to deny someone the most fundamental (and universal) rights available. Such as the freedom of movement. In fact, I believe even the Saudi government recognises that there are certain universal values that transcent national and cultural borders. They have, after all, ratified the United Nations Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment.
Although obviously, they don't consider whipping a traumatized rape victim a cruel or degrading punishment.
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Old 11-22-2007, 10:41 AM   #22
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Default Re: A fine example of modern barbarism..

I understand both sides of the argument concerning the law that the woman was initially punished for; being alone in the company of unrelated men.

I think the fact that she was given a much steeper sentence because she spoke to the media is interesting. This suggests that the government is very concerned about keeping their justice system out of the public eye. If you believe what you are doing is right, why hide it?
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Old 11-23-2007, 05:58 PM   #23
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Default Re: A fine example of modern barbarism..

Mostly because they know that people are going to throw their opinions in their faces and they'd rather not deal with it would be my guess?
Not parallel in the slightest but liken it to a parent disciplining the child, they'd be deeply offended if someone told them they were dong it wrong.

Just my speculation on their perspective.
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Old 11-24-2007, 02:21 AM   #24
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Default Re: A fine example of modern barbarism..

There is however this to consider...

The Saudi Government have said that the law means they have very few cases of rape. But I wonder? If you had been raped, and had broken this law... would you report it? Knowing that you could end up being flogged.

Taken in that context it can be seen as a licence to rape by some Saudi men.
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Old 11-24-2007, 09:56 AM   #25
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Default Re: A fine example of modern barbarism..

Do you know how many women in the US get raped and refuse to take it to the police because they are ashamed? How many actually take it to court and look their attacker in the face and back out because they felt intimidated?

I'm not saying it's worse over here, but it certainly isn't any better.
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Old 11-24-2007, 05:01 PM   #26
Dreamer128
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Default Re: A fine example of modern barbarism..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Firestormalpha View Post
I'm not saying it's worse over here, but it certainly isn't any better.
Actually, it is. For starters, women can't testify before the courts in Saudi Arabia. Well, except under strict circumstances. I'm quoting the ever reliable Wiki (*cough**cough*) here:

In the legal system, women face discrimination as the criminal laws of Saudi Arabia adhere to strict Islamic precepts. An example of this is the requirements for testifying in criminal proceedings; The witness must be deemed sane, the age of an adult, and a Muslim. Non-Muslims may not testify in criminal court. Women may not testify unless it is a personal matter that did not occur in the sight of men. The testimony of a woman is not regarded as fact but as presumption. The reasons women are forbidden to testify in proceedings are (quote):

1.Women are much more emotional than men and will, as a result of their emotions, distort their testimony.

2.Women do not participate in public life, so they will not be capable of understanding what they observe.

3.Women are dominated completely by men, who by the grace of God are deemed superior; therefore, women will give testimony according to what the last man told them.

4. Women are forgetful, and their testimony cannot be considered reliable.
As a result of these laws women are particularly vulnerable in cases of assault and/or rape, as their testimony is treated as a presumption, while that of their attackers is accepted as fact. In some cases, victims of sexual assault are punished on the grounds that they should not be alone with unrelated males.


(Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_r...Arabia#_note-9 )


At least in the US, there is some chance of the rapist getting convicted if the woman steps forward.

Last edited by Dreamer128; 11-24-2007 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 11-24-2007, 08:53 PM   #27
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Default Re: A fine example of modern barbarism..

Wiki, reliable? Like the enquierer is reliable right?

At anyrate that doesn't make a rape victim in the states any more likely to try and testify then one in Saudi.

The percieved idea of selfblame brings that on. The sit there and think that in some way it really was their fault it happened. Some kind of psychological trauma and all that.

I'm not an expert in international law or psychology by any means, so feel free to correct me wherever I'm wrong, but please bring references better than Wikipedia.


Added:
At anyrate their law is their law, and there's not much we will accomplish one way or another sitting here telling each other it's right or it's wrong. So why are we still running our mouths except to try and prove how supposedly intellectual we are?
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Last edited by Firestormalpha; 11-24-2007 at 09:00 PM. Reason: Added text
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Old 11-25-2007, 12:34 AM   #28
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Default Re: A fine example of modern barbarism..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Firestormalpha View Post
Do you know how many women in the US get raped and refuse to take it to the police because they are ashamed? How many actually take it to court and look their attacker in the face and back out because they felt intimidated?

I'm not saying it's worse over here, but it certainly isn't any better.
That applies not only to the US, but in many many countries the world over... and it is a shocking state of affairs for sure. You will get no disagreement from me on this score.

You are correct in saying their law is their law and we have no right to dictate. But even though we may respect their right... we do not have to agree with it and maybe if more people on the net voiced that disagreement it may just make the authorities think about this law. It is after all an archaic law, it has no place in the modern world. Mind you, we also have laws that are so out of date they are laughable.
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Old 11-27-2007, 03:43 PM   #29
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Default Re: A fine example of modern barbarism..

It’s not really about ‘our laws being better than their laws’. It’s about the fact that even the Saudi government recognises that there are certain universal rights to which all human beings are entitled. Furthermore, I personally do not believe that these petty dictatorships truly have the support of their people. When presented with a choice, would not everyone choose to live in a democracy, or a country where their voice is heard? The fact that the laws we are currently debating were not agreed upon by an organ that represents the people that are forced to live by these laws, means that they have no legitimacy whatsoever.



The fact that I used wiki was mainly because I was too lazy to type it out myself. These facts are no more contested than the fact that the earth is round. But should you wish to read more, I believe wiki itself links to other sites. Just to be on the safe side (I’d hate to present y’all with faulty information), I decided to Google it, and this produced a wealth of information. Also, if I wanted to present myself as an ‘intellectual’, I certainly would not be fencing with information I copied from websites. Besides, I’ll have you know that I don’t even own a barret.
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Old 11-27-2007, 05:15 PM   #30
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Default Re: A fine example of modern barbarism..

You missed the point at the end of my last comment. The point being more a question of what are we accomplishing by batting this back and forth here? If you don't like it and want to help change it, its not going to happen by debating it here. Basically, if it bugs you so much, do something about it or stop talking about it. Words without action equals nothing, in otherwords a huge waste of time and space.

I already said I thought it was appalling but I'm not in a position to alter their laws or get others to get them to alter their laws. Heck, I'd be lucky if I got a "thank you for your interest" note from the local gov. rep. and have my own letter burned with the trash.

< Frivolity >
- oooh looky I just leveled up. I feel so special now that I'm a level 20 Warrior. Ok, < /Frivolity >
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Last edited by Firestormalpha; 11-27-2007 at 05:18 PM. Reason: Added frivolity
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