Visit the Ironworks Gaming Website Email the Webmaster Graphics Library Rules and Regulations Help Support Ironworks Forum with a Donation to Keep us Online - We rely totally on Donations from members Donation goal Meter

Ironworks Gaming Radio

Ironworks Gaming Forum

Go Back   Ironworks Gaming Forum > Ironworks Gaming Forums > General Discussion > General Conversation Archives (11/2000 - 01/2005)

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-24-2001, 09:04 AM   #1
Bahamut
Iron Throne Cult
 

Join Date: March 12, 2001
Location: Manila, Philippines
Age: 39
Posts: 4,864
Umm here it is y'all! Since I see lotsa political peeps and all here is what I need:

the 4 basis of self-defense

next is the justification of war.

and Why does the government confiscate stuff when we have a right to our property? What are the basis?

Please do know what I am talking about!

Ryan

------------------


You guys heard Chiharumut, whattabout Ba[H]eartamut???
Bahamut is offline  
Old 09-24-2001, 09:38 AM   #2
DragonMage
20th Level Warrior
 

Join Date: September 6, 2001
Location: The lighter side of life, a.k.a. Newnan, Georgia
Age: 55
Posts: 2,767
Well, dear, I am not by far an expert on legal issues. You need Diogenes for that.

However, and others please correct me if/when I go wrong here...

Self defense: are you needing to know the allowances for assault or that which leads to death? If death results and the defense is 'self-defense', I would think: overwhelming odds? (ganged up on), probably being confronted with superior weaponry (i.e. - the guy had a gun, you had a knife, you managed to stab him and he dies). Gee, I'm not much help here.

Justification of war - you might want to try a government site for that. Each country probably has its own justifications for declaring war.

As far as confiscation of property: from working for a defense attorney for a short time, again - Dio would know better...there's "probable cause" and they also take it for "evidenciary" purposes.

Sorry if this doesn't help much. I'll try to dig up Dio and get him to answer this.

------------------

The day we stop learning is the day we start dying!(c)

Owner/operator of the Evil Petting Zoo and devout member of the HADB clan.
Mage extraordinair.
Commander of the Dragon Fleet, IW Peacekeeping Force
Occasional subjugate to Gwhanos the Fluffy

Hopeless Romantic *sigh*

"Allright! We'll call it a draw."
DragonMage is offline  
Old 09-24-2001, 09:48 AM   #3
WOLFGIR
Bastet - Egyptian Cat Goddess
 

Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Sweden
Age: 50
Posts: 3,450
Hmm, you can check out this book.
WAR AND ANTI-WAR : SURVIVAL AT THE DAWN OF THE 21ST CENTURY
Författare: TOFFLER, ALVIN
ISBN: 0751509388


Also, the definition of selfdefense varies, you can chech the UN for information if it is the basis for a State. For civilpersons it varies alot between countries.

Most democrat countries survive with one basis, the state has monopol of violence. Police and army. The interest of state must be higher than idividuals.

What you are looking for I guess is alot of student material for states and the affairs of states. I have only links to Swedish sites. Hopefully someone can help you better. Toffler is a great writer and some points he wrotes may be of use for you.., If not the book is really interesting!

------------------

Be vevvy qwiet..I´m hunting wabbits...
Wolfgirs lair
once-upon-a-paper
WOLFGIR is offline  
Old 09-24-2001, 09:50 AM   #4
Bahamut
Iron Throne Cult
 

Join Date: March 12, 2001
Location: Manila, Philippines
Age: 39
Posts: 4,864
Well, you tried your best Dragon Mage...

Anyway, self-defense on the basis of defending your life to the death. Let's say if you accidentally killed the person or something.

------------------


You guys heard Chiharumut, whattabout Ba[H]eartamut???
Bahamut is offline  
Old 09-24-2001, 09:57 AM   #5
Bahamut
Iron Throne Cult
 

Join Date: March 12, 2001
Location: Manila, Philippines
Age: 39
Posts: 4,864
I do not have those kind of books...

Well, since we were colonized by the U.S. and our constitution no-so-far off theirs, the U.S. bill of rightsand their constitutions can count. Now is it specific enough?

------------------


You guys heard Chiharumut, whattabout Ba[H]eartamut???
Bahamut is offline  
Old 09-24-2001, 10:33 AM   #6
DragonMage
20th Level Warrior
 

Join Date: September 6, 2001
Location: The lighter side of life, a.k.a. Newnan, Georgia
Age: 55
Posts: 2,767
Until Dio gets here, this MIGHT help more than my feeble attempt:

http://hom.earthlink.net/~rmadden/we..._Property.html
http://www.lawsonline.net
http://www.usconstitution.net
http://www.lcweb2.loc.gov/const/bor.html

Does any of this help?

------------------

The day we stop learning is the day we start dying!(c)

Owner/operator of the Evil Petting Zoo and devout member of the HADB clan.
Mage extraordinair.
Commander of the Dragon Fleet, IW Peacekeeping Force
Occasional subjugate to Gwhanos the Fluffy

Hopeless Romantic *sigh*

"Allright! We'll call it a draw."
DragonMage is offline  
Old 09-24-2001, 03:02 PM   #7
Diogenes Of Pumpkintown
Banned User
 

Join Date: August 9, 2001
Location: ...
Posts: 694
Understand that I am talking about US law here. Whether it is the same in the Phillipines or not I have no idea.

1) Self-defense:

I have no clue as to where you got the idea of "4 bases" for self defense.

Self-defense arises as a legal defense in situations where one would otherwise be guilty of a crime like simple Assault and Battery or Murder. In short, it is a legal excuse for taking an action against the physical person of someone else which would otherwise be a crime.

Self-defense may apply regardless of the seriousness of the action. It can be a legal defense to hitting someone in the nose, or to the extreme of taking their life.

This would be a typical scenario of how self-defense works in the legal system: Person A and Person B are out drinking at a bar. Person B says a few words of a lascivious nature to Person A's girlfriend, which are overheard by a very drunken and jealous Person A, who reacts by taking a swing at Person B. Person B dodges the blow and plants his fist square into Person A's face, breaking his nose and knocking him unconscious.

The police and ambulance are called to the scene. When they arrive they find Person A in very poor condition, with blood all over his face and down his shirt, obviously having been assaulted. After taking conflicting statements from various witnesses, the police decide to charge Person B with Assault and Battery and he is arrested for the same.

Now, Person B has been charged with the crime of A&B against Person A. At trial, he may raise the claim of self-defense as a legal justification for the assault. He is NOT denying that he assaulted Person A, rather he is claiming that his assault was legally justified under the circumstances, in order to protect himself from the prior assault of Person A.

For Person B's claim of self defense to be legally sufficient to excuse his assault on Person A, the evidence must show a number of things: 1) Person B must not have been at fault in bringing about the difficulty to begin with, 2) Person B believed he was in imminent danger of suffering bodily harm from Person A and that the force he used was necessary to prevent said harm, and 3) Person B's belief was reasonable under the circumstances (this is an objective standard, not a subjective one -- the question is whether a reasonable, prudent person in Person B's place would have so believed).

In our above example, the only one of these 3 elements that could be a problem for Person B is the first one -- was he at fault in this situation to begin with? Did his words constitute a legal provocation to person A? In most jurisdictions, the answer would be no -- mere words are NOT a legal excuse to start throwing punches. However, do keep in mind that the decision in this case comes down to 12 ordinary men and women on the jury, and they may very well throw out the fine legal distinctions and take Person B's words to Person's A's girlfriend into account when deciding whether he brought the trouble onto himself or not by his own conduct.

Now, let's change the scenario a bit and say that instead of punching Person A in the nose, Person B had pulled out a gun and shot him dead.

When deadly force is at issue, a 4th element (maybe that is where you are getting the idea of 4 bases of self defense?) in the claim of self defense arises -- the duty to retreat before using deadly force. The Law frowns upon the use of deadly force, for obvious reasons. A person has a duty to retreat under the law before using deadly force, if a person reasonably can. The general rule is that life should not be taken, even that of an aggressor, if a person can secure his own safety simply by retreating. That is the general rule, and there are a number of exceptions to it. One does not have a duty to retreat, for example, if he is in his own home -- there is no requirement to abandon one's own home to an aggressor before the use of deadly force. Another exception is when a person cannot retreat without increasing the danger to himself. There are many others, too many to go into for the present purpose. Keep in mind that in the case of deadly force self defense, all the normal 3 elements of self defense must also be met.

In any case, in the above scenario, Person B would NOT have a claim of self defense against killing Person A, because there was no need at that point for him to resort to deadly force -- he could have simply retreated instead. Note that the duty to retreat only applies when deadly force (and this is defined not just as force which causes death, but also that which causes serious bodily harm) is used. There is no duty to retreat when lesser degrees of force are involved.

Okay, it should be apparent by now that there are tons and tons of gray area here. In my experience, many lay people tend to assume that most legal issues are black and white, and all they have to do is call up a lawyer for a crystal clear answer. Nothing could be further from the truth. More often what the law deals with are gray areas, and the above scenario could come out a hundred different ways with each new minor adjustment to the facts as witnesses testify at trial. I have given a VERY short and simplistic summary of the law of self defense. Understand though that entire treatises could be written on the subject, exploring all of its many facets and nuances and exceptions within exceptions.

Regarding a mistaken belief regarding the need for self defense: let's change the scenario yet again. This time after missing his swing at Person B, Person A pulled out a toy gun (that looked real enough given the lighting conditions in the bar and the speed of the moment) and pointed it at Person B, threatening to kill him; Person B reacts by pulling a real gun and shoots Person A. In this case, Person B has a valid claim of self defense. It makes NO difference that Person B was mistaken about the toy gun being real. Look at the elements of self defense again, the relevant requirements are what Person B believed subjectively about the danger, and whether said belief was objectively reasonable under the circumstances. The Law of Self - Defense only requires that people act reasonably under the circumstances according to information as it reasonably appears at the time -- there is no requirement of omniscience.

Regarding justifications for war -- well, don't expect a legal answer on this one. This has been the topic of philosophical debate for ages, and will continue to be so.

Regarding confiscation: the short answer is that property rights are not absolute, they can be lost or forfeited by certain actions such as use of the property to commit crimes.

I hope this has been of help

Diogenes.
Diogenes Of Pumpkintown is offline  
Old 09-24-2001, 04:36 PM   #8
Father Bronze
Baaz Draconian
 

Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Northern Illinois
Age: 55
Posts: 719
Two suggestions:

On war try searching "just war theory" it is a rather extensive field of study. I have a pretty good article in one of the ethics books I use for Debate research, I could scan the article and e-mail it to you.

In terms of government confiscation, I would look to the social contract philosophers. The social contract basically assumes that when individuals enter society (people under governmental rule), individuals agree to give up some rights in exchange for protection from the government.

For example, without government to hold me back, I can freely go and steal neighbor's newspaper. My neighbor might respond by kidnapping my cat. I might respond by burning down his house. As you see, it just escalates. However, in society, my neighbor loses the right to enforce his own personal form of justice (kidnapping my cat). Instead, the government will decide if I acted wrongly and then take action (fines, jail time, etc.).

Another protection the government provides is protection from foreign enemies. In short, we pay taxes and the government provides the army and diplomats to make sure that we are safe from invasion. Here the social contract directly relates to property. I give up some of my property (usually in the form of money) and the government takes it (in the form of taxes) so that the government can protect me.

When it comes to property, John Locke wrote that property was one of man's inalienable rights (Life, Liberty, and Property). But remember that we give up some of our rights so that we can all enjoy the protections of the government. When we do something immoral, the government can sanction us for our bad behavior (fine us). It's part of the contract.

Sorry this is a bit confusing, but in short, we expect the government to protect us and we have to pay for that protection. Therefore the government gets to take our stuff.

------------------
Most Subtle Official Straightman of the Laughing Hyenas -- Grammarian Brigade.

"The only medicine for suffering, crime, and all the other woes of mankind, is wisdom." -- Thomas Huxley
Father Bronze is offline  
Old 09-25-2001, 10:14 AM   #9
Ryanamur
Fzoul Chembryl
 

Join Date: March 29, 2001
Location: Montréal, Canada
Age: 49
Posts: 1,763
I won’t touch self-defence since Diogenese knows what he’s talking about- and I don’t

Second point. Go to a local library and find a book by Clausewitz. He was basically the founding father of modern warfare as well has the equivalent to a secretary of state in Austria or Germany (my memory is failing). He said that war was the extension of politics. What this means is that when diplomacy fails, you're entitled to go to war to solve a problem. One thing to note for war, there's only one motivation or justification: protection of a state national interest (it's never, never, never justice or morality).

For the third point, call your FBI or police force office and ask the Q. They're probably going to tell you that they can confiscate stuff if:
1- Item was use or took part in a crime
2- Item is not allowed in the country
3- Item will be used as evidence at a trial.

But I'm sure there's more and they might point you towards some reading material. Good luck.

BTW: Books are great for a report but, interviews are better because you add credibility, effort and you can ask they exact questions you want answered. Plus, when interviewing, you can ask the experts which books they recommend and put them in your paper.

Good luck


------------------
If I am because I think, then, if I talk without thinking, I'm not really talking! Am I?

[This message has been edited by Ryanamur (edited 09-25-2001).]
Ryanamur is offline  
Old 09-26-2001, 10:00 AM   #10
Bahamut
Iron Throne Cult
 

Join Date: March 12, 2001
Location: Manila, Philippines
Age: 39
Posts: 4,864
Thanks a lot for your help guys... wow... nice stuff... damn human rights and justice...

------------------


[b]Chaotic Cavalier of ALSB, protector of the Innocent, slayer of the mad...[b]
Bahamut is offline  
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Anyone willing to help me a bit?(Not homework) Neb General Conversation Archives (11/2000 - 01/2005) 4 11-21-2002 11:42 AM
Homework Neb General Conversation Archives (11/2000 - 01/2005) 24 09-17-2002 07:23 AM
Woo! Homework help! Lady Blue03 General Conversation Archives (11/2000 - 01/2005) 13 09-05-2002 09:08 AM
Homework Help... Deathmage General Conversation Archives (11/2000 - 01/2005) 5 08-28-2002 12:52 AM
Homework Help Deathmage General Conversation Archives (11/2000 - 01/2005) 4 05-08-2002 08:32 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:19 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
©2024 Ironworks Gaming & ©2024 The Great Escape Studios TM - All Rights Reserved