World War II

[Attalus]

Barry, I couldn't agree more. Hitler was a master politician who wooed the German masses until they backed him wholeheartedly. He writes in Mein Kampf that the masses are feminine, to be seduced and won, then kept infatuated with lies and flattery. (my paraphrase). But, as you say, if there had been no economic slump, fueled by the Versailles Treaty and its reparation demands, totally at odds with Wilson's Fourteen Points under which Germany surrendered, there would have been no Hitler, and probably no WWII, at least as we know it. The Germans, at the end of WWI, stood deep in enemy territory everywhere, and they did not really feel defeated. They were ready for a leader that would get them revenge, at least the nationalist extremists. And, at that, he barely scraped into office. But, you know that old saw about the camel's nose under the tent...

[Barry the Sprout]

There are quite a few what ifs about the whole thing, that is my problem. It is hard to put all the blame on simply one cause, as everything came together to bring about the problem. What if the Spartakists had won? Then the whole of European history would have been changed beyond recognition. Stalin wouldn't have been able to take power in all probability as he too relied on circumstance, and Hitler would definately not have been able to do so. Very odd.

[Talthyr Malkaviel]

Originally posted by Gargoyle: think about it is someone asked you to defend your home country !!

Actually, they were doing the exact opposite of that, they were actively exapnding and were aware of it, I don't really think they believed that aggressive expansion is defense in any sense of the word.

[Epona]

Originally posted by Barry the Sprout: There are quite a few what ifs about the whole thing, that is my problem. It is hard to put all the blame on simply one cause, as everything came together to bring about the problem. What if the Spartakists had won? Then the whole of European history would have been changed beyond recognition. Stalin wouldn't have been able to take power in all probability as he too relied on circumstance, and Hitler would definately not have been able to do so. Very odd.

Good point Barry, if that had happened Hitler wouldn't have even existed. The swastika was first used in Germany by the troops used to put down the Spartakists.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

This is a very interesting thread and I'd like to address several points. Unfortunately, I'm on my lunch break, so I have to work quick. This means that I won't be able to give proper credit to which members made which remarks.

1) Did the U.S. know about the planned attack on Pearl Harbor? And did they "allow" it to happen in order to enter the war?
I find that assumption "questionable" at best. Remember the technology of the time. Broken codes and intercepted messages were a fact of life on both sides. So, do you really think the Japanese would have used an ordinary code that may or may not have been "broken" to relay information about their biggest TOP SECRET mission of the entire war??? I seriously doubt it. The U.S. even felt they may have used carrier pigeons (a plausible possibility).

2) Were the German people all "bloodthirsty"? Absolutely not. But they were living in extremely harsh economic conditions due to the effects of the Versailles Treaty. Hitler stepped in to give them a common enemy and stir thier patriotic pride up until it reached a "boiling point".

3) Was Hitler just a figurehead? Not even close. He was a tyranical megalomaniac that ruthlessly eliminated ANYBODY who dared question his decisions. There are persistant rumors that his own generals WERE plotting to kill him because he was horribly inept at battle strategy. He had one of the most fearsome armies ever assembled and several of his military leaders were verifiable geniuses. Rommel is still considered one of the greatest strategists the world has ever known. There has even been speculation that US had a vested interest in preventing Hitlers assassination, because they knew his generals would be much tougher to defeat and actually stood a good chance of winning the war if they gained control.

[Beltazar]

Everyone just blame hitler [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Azred]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: This is a very interesting thread and I'd like to address several points. Unfortunately, I'm on my lunch break, so I have to work quick. This means that I won't be able to give proper credit to which members made which remarks. 1) Did the U.S. know about the planned attack on Pearl Harbor? And did they "allow" it to happen in order to enter the war? I find that assumption "questionable" at best. Remember the technology of the time. Broken codes and intercepted messages were a fact of life on both sides. So, do you really think the Japanese would have used an ordinary code that may or may not have been "broken" to relay information about their biggest TOP SECRET mission of the entire war??? I seriously doubt it. The U.S. even felt they may have used carrier pigeons (a plausible possibility).

I have heard that conspiracy theory, also. As questionable as many of FDR's actions were, to suggest that he would allow the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor is too far-fetched. The attack's fesability had been proven in the 1930s, but most considered its likelihood to be quite small.

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: 2) Were the German people all "bloodthirsty"? Absolutely not. But they were living in extremely harsh economic conditions due to the effects of the Versailles Treaty. Hitler stepped in to give them a common enemy and stir thier patriotic pride up until it reached a "boiling point".

Versailles is what happens when one country (I have nothing against the French, mind you) decides to over-punish a defeated foe. A backlash always happens.
The reparations helped destabilaze the European economy which helped destabilize the American economy later.

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: 3) Was Hitler just a figurehead? Not even close. He was a tyranical megalomaniac that ruthlessly eliminated ANYBODY who dared question his decisions. There are persistant rumors that his own generals WERE plotting to kill him because he was horribly inept at battle strategy. He had one of the most fearsome armies ever assembled and several of his military leaders were verifiable geniuses. Rommel is still considered one of the greatest strategists the world has ever known. There has even been speculation that US had a vested interest in preventing Hitlers assassination, because they knew his generals would be much tougher to defeat and actually stood a good chance of winning the war if they gained control.

Actually, they did try to kill him with a bomb, but they missed--he was late to the meeting.

[Attalus]

Cerek and Azred, Ladislas Farrago's The Game of the Foxes and Anthony Cave Brown's Bodyguard of Lies hasve excellent accounts of the plot to kill Hitler. He reacted savagely to it, purging his generals including Rommel. Anyone who thinks that Hitler was a figurehead simply is living in a dream world. William Schirer's The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich details his obsessive hoarding of power.

[ 05-02-2002, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: Attalus ]

[Alexander]

Originally posted by Lady Blue03: This is a really interesting topic, seeing as we just finished covering this in my AP US history class. Ill contribute what i think: It is true most Germans at that point were 'bloodthristy', but Hitler was a harsh leader. Anyone who spoke up against what he was doing was killed. Most of the Germans were cowed into silence by fear of losing their lives. As far as Pearl Harbor goes, it was tragic, yes, but we had been intercepting japanese messages to their allies and what not for years. Rumor has it that FDR(Roosevelt, who im pretty sure was president at the time)let the japanese bomb pearl harbor so we could declare war on them. I believe that, what would stop us from not intercepting that one message? Our production of the bomb was the largest thing of all IMHO. We set aside 6 japanese cities, one was called Hiroshima or something, and said if you dont stop what youre doing, were dropping the bomb. They didnt listen, so we dropped them. Immediatley after this, Stalin declared war on Japan in the name of Russia. Ive kind of lost track of what this arguement is about though, what is it??

FDR knew the Japanese were going to attack, but he did not know where. There is no way he could've prepared for Pearl Harbor, since he didn't know that would be the place where they would attack.

[johnny]

Originally posted by uss: one more thing, the killing of all those jews was very bad for germany. did you know that Germany has to pay s**tloads of money to all those jews, that lost their family members every year? and i dont think the german soldiers were bloodthirsty. they were patriots of their honorable country. though hitler was full of s**t(he lied that he`s a vegetarian, so people would think he`s a good man) and why arent there any germans in this discussion!? that would make things more interesting.. i guess germans dont play RPGs(unlike UT)

you forgot the ss. They were no ordinary soldiers, they were murderers, rapists,nazi party maniacs,etc. And they truly believed they were a superior race,how ignorant can a human being become ?