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Old 11-20-2005, 09:24 PM   #1
Memnoch
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This came as a surprise. How do they deal with armed criminals then?

Quote:
Home Office rejects call to arm all police
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Rosie Cowan, crime correspondent
Monday November 21, 2005
The Guardian
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The murder of the Bradford constable Sharon Beshenivsky by an armed robber has reignited the debate on arming British police, with calls yesterday for more officers to be trained to use guns and balloted on whether they want to carry them.
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The Home Office rejected calls to arm all police officers in the wake of the death. Hazel Blears, the policing minister, said: "It is important that the police have a very close relationship with the public, and for them to routinely carry guns might put that relationship at risk."
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Britain is one of the few places in the world in which the vast majority of police officers are unarmed. Just under 7,000 in England and Wales currently carry firearms - about 10% of the Metropolitan police in London and 5% elsewhere, although it varies from force to force, depending on operational requirements.
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In a survey three years ago, an overwhelming 80% of officers said they did not want guns. But Jan Berry, chairwoman of the Police Federation, which represents 140,000 rank-and-file officers, said they should be asked again, and even if arming all officers was not the answer, there was a need for more armed officers.
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"There are some areas that clearly face a greater risk from gun crime than others, where officers in those areas and the public in those areas are at greater risk," she said. "We do believe that the number of authorised officers remains too low. At the moment, we have less than 5% trained to carry firearms and we are not convinced that that provides the police service with sufficient resilience."
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But both Ms Berry and Chris Fox, the president of the Association of Chief Police Officers, admitted that the question was far from clear cut, and that arming the police brought other risks. It was impossible to say if PC Beshenivsky's life would have been saved if she had had a gun.
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Ms Beshenivsky and her colleague, Teresa Milburn, who was also shot but wounded, were alerted by an alarm call to a robbery at a travel agency last Friday, but appear to have had no indication that it was an armed robbery. A bullet from one of the gunmen penetrated her lightweight body armour. Many police officers find the heavier army-style ballistics vests too bulky and inflexible for everyday use.
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Four men and a woman arrested over the murder were yesterday taken from London to West Yorkshire in a heavily-guarded armed convoy. All were held in a series of raids across the capital on Saturday. Another man, who was also arrested in the raids remained in the capital yesterday. Police have not released any further details about those arrested, or said where in London the raids took place.
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Colin Cramphorn, the West Yorkshire chief constable, said: "Invariably, the armed police debate will become heightened. However, it can create more problems than it solves. It is not a panacea."
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Mr Fox said: "If you look at police forces around the world, they have far higher casualty rates than we do. Often their officers who are armed are caught by surprise in similar circumstances, sometimes shot with their own weapons. So it is not a straightforward argument."
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The issue is further complicated by the modern terrorist threat and new guidelines on armed officers shooting to kill suspected suicide bombers, the first deployment of which led to the death of an innocent man, Jean Charles de Menezes, shot by Met officers on a London tube train in July, and there are fears that having more armed officers would mean more civilians being shot by police.
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Britain's most senior policeman, Sir Ian Blair, says Scotland Yard needs more trained firearms officers, and has suggested that such expertise could be quickly acquired by hiring former soldiers. However, Sir Ian does not want a fully armed police force. "Ninety percent of the Met remains unarmed and I want to keep it that way," he said. The former Met commissioner Lord Stevens also said that arming all officers would not reduce violence and would "chip away at a major part of our society".
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Among those calling for all police to be armed is the film director Michael Winner, who founded the Police Memorial Trust after the shooting in 1984 of PC Yvonne Fletcher outside the Libyan embassy.
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Factfile
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· 36 police officers have died in the line of duty in England, Scotland and Wales in the past 20 years - 11 shot, 10 stabbed and three beaten to death, while 12 were killed by vehicles.
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· PC Sharon Beshenivsky was the sixth woman out of 1,600 officers to die in Britain since the formation of the modern police service in 1829. The last female officer shot dead was PC Yvonne Fletcher, 25, outside the Libyan embassy in London in 1984. Women make up 21% of the 43 English and Welsh forces.
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· Gun crime in Britain has almost trebled in the past eight years, from 4,903 incidents in 1997 to 11,160 in the past year, 28% of which involved imitation weapons. Sixty people were shot dead last year, down from 70 in the previous 12 months.
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· Police believe there are almost 300,000 illegal guns in Britain. Much gun violence is gang and drug-related. Three-quarters of those killed or maimed in shootings in London are black, as are 80% of the gunmen, statistics mirrored in several other English cities.
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Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/gun/Story/...647293,00.html
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Old 11-21-2005, 01:02 AM   #2
Aerich
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English criminals are more civilized.
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Old 11-21-2005, 06:48 AM   #3
wellard
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aerich:
English criminals are more civilized.
Joking aside it is a fair point. Historically crims in Britain use guns very rarely. However I am led to believe that this is sadly changing. While I hope this does not dissolve into a guns wonderful v guns evil debate I hope that the mainstay of British police will long continue to remain unarmed (talk softly) with highly trained and well armed back up on call at a moments notice (big stick)


edit for poor grammer

[ 11-21-2005, 06:50 AM: Message edited by: wellard ]
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Old 11-21-2005, 03:31 PM   #4
Szass-Tam
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There are armed police, but they're only needed very rarely. Besides, wouldn't you rather have guns as a last resort than a necessity.
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Old 11-21-2005, 05:15 PM   #5
Sir Degrader
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Yup. The risk of accidental discharges, plus the fact a crimminal might be more inclined to resort to violence if he suspects an Officer of the Peace has a weapon. Note: This is all conjecture.
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Old 11-22-2005, 01:45 PM   #6
shamrock_uk
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Police have been routinely armed in Birmingham where there is a large gun problem among immigrant communities. Post-11th September you will now see armed police at places like airports.

Every police force has several elite firearms units that are called out to incidents involving guns - the policy is usually one of containment until they arrive.

The vast majority of gun crime doesn't affect the majority of the population, mainly taking place either within an ethnic group (so-called "black on black" shootings) or between rival gangs (usually black and asians). Thus arming police country-wide would serve no real purpose yet increase the risk.

Not to mention that, when polled, many police officers don't actually want to carry guns, reasoning that they can do a better job of 'community policing' without one.

It seems to work pretty well normally - most violent crimes are committed with knives and these are easily dealt with by a competent officer.

Just tragic events like this get through the net sometimes My thoughts go to the family.
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Old 11-22-2005, 06:49 PM   #7
Sir Degrader
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Quote:
Originally posted by shamrock_uk:
Police have been routinely armed in Birmingham where there is a large gun problem among immigrant communities.
Story of my life.
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Old 11-23-2005, 01:39 AM   #8
Orbost
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When I moved out to Australia a few years back, I was shocked to see armed policemen wandering the streets. My initial reaction was - why the hell are they carrying guns? Isn't that a bit dangerous? I immediately felt that I wouldn't want to go up and chat to the officers the way I might to an English policeman.

Maybe it's just my sheltered English upbringing, but I'm just really uneasy about guns full stop. I don't like them, and I feel it puts a wall between the policeman and the civilian. If the British police are serious about community relations, I would want to keep them unarmed for as long as possible. Armed Response units are obviously needed, but for the normal cop in the street - no guns please.
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Old 11-25-2005, 05:24 PM   #9
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I think Robin Williams said it best:

Police in the US: "Stop or I'll shoot"
Police in the UK: "Stop or...or I'll say Stop again"



I think I'll go and look up some crime stats.
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Old 11-29-2005, 05:43 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Degrader:
quote:
Originally posted by shamrock_uk:
Police have been routinely armed in Birmingham where there is a large gun problem among immigrant communities.
Story of my life. [/QUOTE]Why, are you from Birmingham ?
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