Religion Thread II (originally posted by Callum Kerr)

[Madriver]

Originally posted by John D Harris: Interesting thoughts and reasoning. I would argue that man Can conceive of or imagine superior beings but Not a supreme being. How can the mortal grasp the immortal? How can the finite comprehend the Infinite? What is the nature of enternity? Is it time without end or existance without time? Of what value would time be to an enternal being? How can phsyical nature imgagine spiritual nature? When Moses asked God who to say was sending him God answered I Am (some translations read Great I Am) or as Jesus said the Alpha & the Omega, the Begining and the End. Through out history Man has imagned superior beings, the Greek pantheon, the Norse, the Roman, the Aztec, Maya, Inca, Souix, Hun, Mongol all had gods or goddesses they worshiped. But the common thread running through their gods were limits of some kind, usualy a time limit of some sort. Some may bring up what about Revelations? Revelations is about the end of the Earth or Time as we know it but Not the End of God.

The following are all modern religions with a Supreme Being:

Christianity
Judaism
Islam

Which one is right?

Some people have speculated that as our intelligence and learning increases our religions evolve with us, as seen in the progression from primitive religions to our current state. And the next logical step in this evolution is the rempoval of worship and the reliance on self. Thoughts?

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Madriver: The following are all modern religions with a Supreme Being: Christianity Judaism Islam Which one is right? Some people have speculated that as our intelligence and learning increases our religions evolve with us, as seen in the progression from primitive religions to our current state. And the next logical step in this evolution is the rempoval of worship and the reliance on self. Thoughts?

The three of them have common roots all three worship the same Supreme Being, Judaism, Islam trace their roots to Abraham, but through different sons of Abraham. Judaism comes through Issac, Islam comes through Ishmael. Christianity is the fulfilment of Judaism.

Which one is right? The $64,000 question. For me there is No choice but Christianity.

Progression from primitive religions to our current state, I believe Yorick answered that in an earlier post showing that monotheism predates. If I remember correctly I saw a Discovery Channel show that even in the earliest Eygptian records there was a sect that believed in Monotheism and denighed the existance of the Egyptian gods (Ra, Thoth, Set etc.) in fact there was at least one Pharoah that arose from that sect and outlawed the worship of other gods. According to the show's archeolgist, I have another theory on that but for the purpose of this dicussion it would be irrelivant.

Reliance on self and worship are not mutualy exclusive, Self reliance is IMHO essential to worship the first recorded thing God said to Adam was that he could eat the fruit of the all the trees except the "tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat of, for in that day you shall die". God said shall not eat , not Can not eat. God placed the responsibility on man to decide for himself (rely on himself) as to wether or not he would follow God. Humble yourself before God we are told, How can we humble ourseleves if we are not free to rely on ourselves to humble or not?

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Madriver: My argument here was against the notion that a supreme being is too much of a stretch of the imagination for humans to come up with, that it had to be handed to them becuase they couldn't think of it themselves. I was not trying to argue whether polytheism was first, or whether monotheism developed from it, that really doesn't matter for my argument (but it may have been a bad choice of words to use "first gods" as opposed to "ancient gods"). And polytheism was an example of how people "thought" of religions, and they weren't handed to them. Under your argument, every religion on the planet must be real since humans don't have the capacity to dream them up. Yes the Greek gods were different, but the people still worshipped them, so the result is the same. Same with the Hindu gods, the American Indian gods, the Aztec gods, etc. Now you can argue that Christianity is different because it wasn't "dreamed" up, and I would agree that it is a possibility. But I disagree that humans are not capable of imagining a supreme being(s), it has been done throughout the ages and will probably continue to be done in the future, because some questions just are virutally impossible to answer. [img]smile.gif[/img]

1.Every culture has had a belief in a creation and a creator of some sort.

2.There is the notion of an archetypal human that goes against human nature and animal instinct.

Where did the idea of the archetypal sinless human come from if no archetypal human has ever existed?

The issue of the Greek gods is that they were very much human, so it was not a huge stretch to concieve of these gods who basically controlled an element or part of nature each. Africans had ancestor worship. Various other cultures had nature worship or ruler worship. Rome and Japan have had Emperor worship. These are not conceptualisations found outside nature.

These are nothing like the concept of a being outside time, without a beginning. A being of pure love who breathed life into existence. Who created light through will and word alone.

There is nothing in our understanding that allows us to comprehend something existing outside time.

How can you put one thought in front of the other without time? I can't comprehend it. My very thought process, my awareness - my proof of existence as an entity - depends on the existence of one moment preceding another.

The concept of an eternal omnipresent awareness who created the universe is very much unique to the monotheistic paths of Islam, Judaism and Christianity. Where they differ is in the path to getting to him. The road to salvation. Islam also differs in that it paints God in a fearful light, not the loving light Christ showed God in.

Now. If you argue that a 'supreme being' has been present in human consciousness through the ages, then I would argue that that is proof of the entitys existence, not of human brilliance.

No individual human can create outside their experience. You can experiment with colour and discover a new shade, but you cannot visualise and conceive of a new colour that you have not seen.

Once you have seen the colour you are then able to incorporate it into your creations. This highlights of the importance of new experiences for a creative individual. It is an empowering concept, even though it is at first humbling.

Discovery leads to creation and creation leads to discovery. It's a beautiful thing. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Madriver: Some people have speculated that as our intelligence and learning increases our religions evolve with us, as seen in the progression from primitive religions to our current state. And the next logical step in this evolution is the rempoval of worship and the reliance on self. Thoughts?

Is a human today really more intelligent than a human of yesterday? The common esential issues facing an individual haven't changed.
Who am I?
Why am I here?
Love.
Loss
Loneliness
Connection and community
Survival
Finding value in survival
Parenthood and procreation
Responsibility
Avoidance of responsibility
Happiness

These are common threads throughout existence. The problems Plato and Socrates faced, we face today.

Regarding knowledge. yes we've accumulated much en-masse, but what about the individual. How much information does a human need to posess? What worth is information for it's own sake if it does not enhance ones life?

There is the joke that in the past a human historian/scientist knew stuff-all about everything.

Now a human historian scientist can be so specialised that they know everything about stuff-all.

Exclusive worship of self is ludicrous in my mind.

Did you bring yourself into being? Did you create youself or determine when, where and to what parents you were born?

Hubris has only ever proven to lead to a downfall - either collectively or individually. Pride is a serious weakness.

Besides, that said, faith in God, leads to appreciation and love of self. I accept myself as created by God, flaws and imperfections included - in fact a necessity so God can show more love through forgiveness.

My faith has only ever built my self esteem, yet kept destructive pride and hubris at bay. Balance.