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Old 02-08-2005, 09:42 PM   #81
Melusine
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Quote:
Originally posted by Morgeruat:
And you're obfuscating the facts, he was murdered in cold blood in broad daylight for making a film that was critical of a barbaric death cult. I'll bet the only statements made by islamic authorities amounted to "we're innocent victims in this" and not a cult that breeds such hostility and hatred that killing a man in cold blood is not only acceptable, but the killers duty, and an act that brings honor on himself and his family, no melisine, it is YOU who have no idea what you're talking about.
My name is spelled "Melusine", Vincent van Gogh has been dead for over a century and the reasons for the murder of Theo van Gogh are not known as of yet.

I don't deny he was killed by an Islamic fundamentalist, I do doubt its sole cause was Submission, but much more general: van Gogh's personality, his years of insulting people's religions (Christian and Muslim alike, although I grant it was no Christian who killed him) and the hammering home, in incredibly one-sided and offensive way, of his radical opinions in many ways, including the movie.
It is laughable that you just go ahead and assume, no, BET, that you would in any way be able to divine what the reactions of Dutch muslims were - how can you know?
"You'll bet"?? I don't have to bet, I read the newspapers here everyday, see the news and walk in the area where it all happened. I don't need to bet.

I am proud to live in a country where Muslims felt welcome and safe enough to mourn alongside other Dutch people for Theo van Gogh, and ashamed at the same time of a country where idiot racists vandalised Mosques and set fire to schools to reward these Muslims. But I'm glad that at least there's one bigot not living here to add fuel to the hatred and ignorance.

[ 02-08-2005, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: Melusine ]
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Old 02-08-2005, 09:49 PM   #82
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Muslims mourned for Vincent too ? I didn't know they loved his paintings so much.
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Old 02-08-2005, 09:52 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally posted by Davros:
You read way too much into things Cerek, but your disagreement with me (shock gasp horror) is noted .

All I see is a failure to show the moral fibre to do the right thing because it was called for by someone who usually argues the ante. If it was called for by somone who usually argues pro it would have been acknowledged and changed ages ago. Blind stubborness can be seen by some to be only a virtue, but as you are aware it is a two edged sword.

That is the crime - it is also the punishment .

OK - been back - re-evaluated - still boils down to the paragraph up there. Stiff neck symphony. Now that Morgie is pulling up a chair and basking in your supporting glow we can give up any notion that the right thing willl be done, and instead expect the RIGHT thing will continue to be done (sigh).
Yes, blind stubborness can be a two-edged sword. You take exception to the title. Fair enough. In your opinion, the title is defamatory and offensive. Some members have agreed with you, but an equal number have disagreed with the offensiveness or seriousness of the title. In the end, though, it still boils down to a matter of opinion for both sides.

As for Morgie "basking in my supporting glow", that has GOT to be the funniest thing I've seen you post in a long, long time. You've had your own "cheering section" in this thread, so it can be assumed that your own unwillingness to change is just as firmly entrenched as Morgie's.


Quote:
Originally posted by Davros:
You Cerek are taking me down a path that I have steadfastly avoided in this thread up till now. The path of the like minded simile.

When it boils down to it, if I lost the plot with some nameless American (think outside the IW box - this is hypothetical) and labelled them as "redneck scum", how much more offensive would it be if I labelled him as "American redneck scum". By your arguments the answer is that the one title is no more offensive than the other but I think that is bollocks plain and simple. I think the hue and cry of outrage would be immeasurably greater and rightly so. The 2nd term to me would be as unforgiveable as the title of this thread. Come out and tell me honestly Cerek that the 2nd doesn't offend you more. Putting the country in the term unforgiveably slanders the country in a manner that is unacceptable.
First of all, I'm very flattered I am able to force you down a path you don't wish to trod. I had no idea my arguments were that powerful.

As for your example of like-minded simile, I CAN honostly say that I do NOT consider the term "American red-neck scum" any more offensive as "red-neck scum", because quite frankly, I didn't know "red neck scum" lived in any country OTHER than America. And it all depends on the context in which the term is used. In this case, I am not offended by it at all. But for the two weeks following the election, I DID get a freakin belly-full of the members here demonizing the "ignorant, inbred, red-neck hillbillies that were too stupid to think for ourselves". Most Southerners really do NOT take as much offense at "red neck scum" as you might think. As John D. pointed out, we actually wear that badge with a bit of pride. Because whenever it is used, it is a clear sign that we have pissed off somebody who disagrees with us and they have nothing left to do but to resort to insulting our heritage. Too bad for them we aren't as ashamed of our heritage as they would like us to be.


Quote:
Originally posted by Davros:
FOX - yes - I am out to condemn their misinformation. Lets not pretend that no-one here ever watches it. What perecntage of American households is it the main news source? What percentage of those would be democrat households? How many posts have we seen hereabouts that show there are people here amongst us that believe that WOMD were found and that are dead set sure links between Saddam and Al Queda. Let's not spread the net wider than I was setting it bud. I am aware that not everyone watches FOX, but I am aware that FOX watchers know less truth than what they think they now too.
You're welcome to condemn Fox News all you want - and I agree with you about their slanted coverage. But I still say that the number of actual viewers (both here AND in the general public) are much smaller than you are implying. I named the most vocal conservatives on this board and EVERY ONE of us has said we either don't watch Fox News at all or only watch it occasionally. And I go back to my original assertion that 60% of the viewers may have believed the misinformation by Fox, but that still doesn't tell us what percentage of the actual population qualify as "regular viewers". Again, I assert the actual number is far less than most sources like to imply.

And I notice that there were no statistics given for the percentage of CNN viewers that believed THEIR news source wholeheartedly - even though CNN ended up admitting that they manufactured an interview derisive of American troops and much of their coverage had a definite negative tone towards the President, war, and troops. Disagreeing with the action is one thing, but even CNN took it past the point of objective disagreement and firmly into the side of "slanting" the news. So I ask again, how many CNN viewers bought thier news reports hook, line and sinker?

Just some points to ponder, mate.
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Old 02-08-2005, 09:54 PM   #84
Melusine
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Quote:
Originally posted by Morgeruat:
And Melusine, answer this for me, if events like that are such aberrations why are they growing more and more frequent, if it's a tiny minority of extremists. And why won't the muslim community do some "housecleaning" to root out the people who do such harm to their image, perhaps because they are acting in complete accordance with the laws that have been passed down for 1400 years.

I'm waiting for your answer to my question, not laughter, not more cheering for your cheer squad, answer the question in a way that satisfies everyone, and you can honestly believe.
Oh ho, "answer the question in a way that satisfies everyone", are we growing philosophical? Don't make me laugh. Try writing one sensible post yourself before starting to make insane demands of others.

I have spoken just of the situation in Amsterdam, since YOU brought up the murder that took place here. The majority of Muslims here are not radical. Maybe they will be if they run into people like you often enough, which is one of my biggest fears.
Your close-minded pigeonholing-brain must have pegged me with the terrorist-loving Muslimhuggers already. For what it's worth I consider fundamentalist Islam a very scary and worrying thing, and am concerned and frightened about the number of integrated, liberal Muslims who have started to lean to the radical side. I'm just as concerned about the racist morons who push them in that direction with their intolerance, their hate-breeding, their selective and misguided interpretation of Quran verses and their ignorance.
I worry about radical Islam, but I don't consider sweeping insults and bigorty very fruitful tools to prevent more Muslims from going radical.
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Old 02-08-2005, 09:56 PM   #85
Melusine
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Quote:
Originally posted by johnny:
Muslims mourned for Vincent too ? I didn't know they loved his paintings so much.
Whoops! That's what you get when people drop names they know nothing about. Actually I don't find ole Vince that cool - not my taste
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Old 02-08-2005, 09:56 PM   #86
Morgeruat
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You forget that he also had some scathing movies about Jews, and none of them threatened, or murdered him. and you still didn't answer my question melisisne

[ 02-08-2005, 08:57 PM: Message edited by: Morgeruat ]
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Old 02-08-2005, 09:58 PM   #87
Melusine
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Quote:
Originally posted by Morgeruat:
You forget that he also had some scathing movies about Jews, and none of them threatened, or murdered him. and you still didn't answer my question melisisne
How petty, Morguerat, but at least you've chosen an apt name for yourself, even if you couldn't spell that one right either.

I have answered your question pertaining to the point I was replying about: the situation HERE, in my city. In my city the majority of Muslims IS problem-free. As yet, as I added. I was talking of my city and country alone since you brought it up, and don't feel moved to write any treatises about Islam in general to such as you, thanks.

[ 02-08-2005, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: Melusine ]
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Old 02-08-2005, 10:06 PM   #88
Morgeruat
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Quote:
Originally posted by Melusine:
quote:
Originally posted by Morgeruat:
And Melusine, answer this for me, if events like that are such aberrations why are they growing more and more frequent, if it's a tiny minority of extremists. And why won't the muslim community do some "housecleaning" to root out the people who do such harm to their image, perhaps because they are acting in complete accordance with the laws that have been passed down for 1400 years.

I'm waiting for your answer to my question, not laughter, not more cheering for your cheer squad, answer the question in a way that satisfies everyone, and you can honestly believe.
Oh ho, "answer the question in a way that satisfies everyone", are we growing philosophical? Don't make me laugh. Try writing one sensible post yourself before starting to make insane demands of others.

I have spoken just of the situation in Amsterdam, since YOU brought up the murder that took place here. The majority of Muslims here are not radical. Maybe they will be if they run into people like you often enough, which is one of my biggest fears.
Your close-minded pigeonholing-brain must have pegged me with the terrorist-loving Muslimhuggers already. For what it's worth I consider fundamentalist Islam a very scary and worrying thing, and am concerned and frightened about the number of integrated, liberal Muslims who have started to lean to the radical side. I'm just as concerned about the racist morons who push them in that direction with their intolerance, their hate-breeding, their selective and misguided interpretation of Quran verses and their ignorance.
I worry about radical Islam, but I don't consider sweeping insults and bigorty very fruitful tools to prevent more Muslims from going radical.
[/QUOTE]perhaps I should go back a few pages and quote myself AGAIN, I never once said all muslims are wacko's, nor did I imply that. I said that Islam teaches hatred, and a greater love of death than life. I don't consider you a muslimhugger, I think you've got your head buried in the sand, much as I'm sure you think I've got mine in one of my orifices. You didn't answer my question and instead libelled(not slander since slander is spoken) me because it's the only response left to you since logic won't satisfy ANYONE.
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Old 02-08-2005, 10:09 PM   #89
Morgeruat
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Quote:
Originally posted by Melusine:
quote:
Originally posted by Morgeruat:
You forget that he also had some scathing movies about Jews, and none of them threatened, or murdered him. and you still didn't answer my question melisisne
How petty, Morguerat, but at least you've chosen an apt name for yourself, even if you couldn't spell that one right either.

I have answered your question pertaining to the point I was replying about: the situation HERE, in my city. In my city the majority of Muslims IS problem-free. As yet, as I added. I was talking of my city and country alone since you brought it up, and don't feel moved to write any treatises about Islam in general to such as you, thanks.
[/QUOTE]once again you prove my point, you can't defend your position and merely say "I haven't seen it so it doesn't exist"
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Old 02-08-2005, 10:12 PM   #90
johnny
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The way i see the whole Van Gogh issue is, that if you keep insulting a certain group of people long enough, and i do mean insult them to the bone time and time again, sooner or later someone of that group will bite a chunk out your ass, and it doesn't necessarily have to be a fundamentalist nutjob.

I'm not saying Van Gogh brought it on himself, but he could have expected something like that to happen, the man didn't know when to stop.

It's undeniable though, that something is very rotten overhere right now. I mean with the deathlist and all. Hirsi Ali, Wilders, Cohen, and even Balkenende can't go in public without an army of bodyguards anymore, and that's something we're not quite used to.

And what the hell did Balkenende ever do wrong to be placed on a deathlist ? Balkenende of all people....please. He's a man you want to pet on the head, buy him an icecream or a lollypop or something, but not kill him. That's just sick.

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