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Old 02-03-2005, 01:24 AM   #41
Aelia Jusa
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I agree with both LadyZ and Cerek that if nothing else, this law is discriminatory towards women. I also agree that it is not (quite) rape, but there is a large element of coercion involved, even if it not outright forcing a woman to have sex against her will, and therefore almost as bad.

I'm a little confused by it all though really. If the woman is working as a prostitute, why would she still be receiving unemployment benefits? Unless the government is her pimp... [img]graemlins/uhoh1.gif[/img] But really, unless she is working as a prostitute for the government and it is a 'work for the dole' type scheme, isn't the law sort of just a 'get a job after 12 months or no more benefits'? Why is prostitution singled out as her only option? Weird.
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Old 02-03-2005, 01:57 AM   #42
Ilander
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Reason, people...don't bicker and be mean to one another, please.

Now, on topic, it is worth note that the economic impact of HOMELIFE is the most neglected impact on the national (and global) economy.

I can personally vouch for my father, unemployed for over a year, as having contributed to the growth of the economy. He purchased things, he sold goods (we farm, after all...it's what we do), and through that, contributed positively to our society.

I wish that we wouldn't place so much of our pride squarely on how good of a job we have....

Anyone know anything about the continuation of this story? What's going on now/whatnot?
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Old 02-03-2005, 02:35 AM   #43
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I am skeptical and wonder how many woman have actually been forced to have sex for money in this situation. The first thing that raises my suspicion is the source of the original article, WND. An American right-wing "news" site with a history of bashing on Euros...Yeah right thats a reliable source for an objective veiw of this particular situation. Unless you are a rabid evangelical neo-con, I would place a high degree of distrust in WND.

Second, no real hard evidence has been offered that anyone has actually been forced to do anything.

So what, the woman in the article with bartending expirience was asked to work in a brothel.... Brothels need bartenders, and cooks, and hosts, and other services. Working in brothel doesn't automatically equate to having sex. I didnt see anywhere that the specific postion she was offered involved any actual "sex" work. Hell I wouldn't put past WND to have made her up to sensationalize the story, but I am quite skeptical of that source and previous misinformation it has offered on various subjects.

On another note, the Sex industry, at least here in the U.S. pays quite well for those who choose to do it professionally. Unlike others, I dont judge those that work in profession. I count a few as my friends. Actually I am more inclined to judge those who judge harshly and negatively the people that work in that profession.
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Old 02-03-2005, 02:40 AM   #44
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Here is a different article about this topic:

Reuters


BERLIN Jan 31 (Reuters) - A celebrated Berlin prostitute said Monday that German job center advisers shouldn't shy away from offering jobs in the sex industry to the long-term unemployed.
Molly Luft, who sold her famous Berlin brothel two months ago and now runs a bar in the city's lively Kreuzberg district, said the sex industry was always looking for new recruits.

"Why shouldn't they send the unemployed to work in the sex industry? Before it was a gray zone, but now employees are insured and receive benefits," Luft told Reuters. "People would no longer be unemployed and could earn themselves a living."

Most business sectors in Germany are shedding workers, and unemployment is expected to exceed five million, nearly 11 percent of the workforce, in January for the first time since reunification in 1990.

German sex workers have been on a par with any other employee since the government legalized prostitution in 2001. They are entitled to social security benefits and pay taxes.

Registered brothel keepers also believe they have a right to seek new staff through job centers and have been scouring job seekers' databases for suitable matches.

"I was always looking for workers over 30 years in the trade. People aren't willing to work very much but they expect to earn a lot of money," Luft said.

A spokesman for the Federal Labor Office said that if job seekers said they were prepared to work as, for example, dancers in strip bars, advisers could put them in touch with any suitable employers, but vacancies would not be displayed in job centers.

He also stressed job centers would not look for prostitutes on behalf of brothels, nor offer sex industry jobs to people who hadn't specifically mentioned it as an area of interest.

Speculation has grown over recent weeks that Germany's new welfare reforms, obliging the long-term unemployed to take any available job or risk losing their benefits, could lead to women being offered jobs in the sex industry.

"One can't expect everyone to be prepared to work in the sex industry," Luft said. "Plus if people aren't very attractive they aren't going to make much money," she added.

© Reuters 2005. All Rights Reserved.
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Old 02-03-2005, 02:51 AM   #45
The Hierophant
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aelia Jusa:

I'm a little confused by it all though really. If the woman is working as a prostitute, why would she still be receiving unemployment benefits? Unless the government is her pimp... [img]graemlins/uhoh1.gif[/img] But really, unless she is working as a prostitute for the government and it is a 'work for the dole' type scheme, isn't the law sort of just a 'get a job after 12 months or no more benefits'? Why is prostitution singled out as her only option? Weird.
I think I may be misinterpreting your questions here, but just in case I'm not, I'll give my take on things.

By the sounds of things a woman employed as a professional prostitute will not receive unemployment benefits. If I'm getting things right here, once a person has been on the unemployment benefit for a year or more they become legally obligated to accept any legal employment offered to them. Everyone goes on the unemployment list, which is available for employers to peruse, and if a brothel owner likes what he sees and offers a job to a woman who has been on the list for over a year, then she has to take it. Likewise, if a cafe owner offers a woman a job as a waitress she has to take it. Their benefit stops as soon as their employment starts, wherever they happen to be working.

Now, have I just been telling you stuff you already know? If so, then I'm sorry, I didn't mean to patronise...

The 'forced prostition' scenario would probably be quite rare in all actuality. But it makes for good copy in the headlines for it's 'moral shock value'. Journalists have to make a buck, same as everyone else. Writing shock headlines saying that the government is forcing women into prostitution sells newspapers, plain n' simple.

I wouldn't mind being a prostitute, so long as my clientelle were all female. If they were gross and old I'd just shut my eyes and think of Angelina Jolie
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Old 02-03-2005, 06:20 AM   #46
Melusine
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Thanks for that Chewbacca. Of course it's about working in the sex industry, but not as actual prostitutes! What kind of country did everybody think it is?? "Oh I'm glad I don't live there" - consider that reciprocated, I'm quite happy to live in a country with legalised prostitution. I have German family and am half-German, and although the unemployment over there is indeed bad, there is nothing wrong with the country apart from that. No lewd cesspool of European debasedness and insanity...
The whole discussion sounds as if people just assume women are forced into prostitution in Germany. Believe me, no way. My cousins have all been unemployed, some for longer stretches at a time, and I think they'd have told me if they were forced to whore around by Pimp Government. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Oh and since we're on the subject of benefits anyway, did you know that if you have a child in Germany, you can take as many as 2 years off (not sure about the exact length of time I have to admit, but longer than in most countries I've ever heard of) and still get your old job back?
Oh and since the comparison America-Germany has been brought up, it's a hell of a lot rarer here to be fired for no reason.

Anyway I just want to keep stressing that the comparison to rape is extremely distasteful to me. HELLOOOO! It's just about money! No woman is being forced to have sex (if only because of what Chewbacca's article says) at all, sheesh. Even in the highly unlikely instance that a German woman would have no other options left than to become a prostitute or lose her benefit, she *can* actually just pick the lose benefit option, y'know? And that's not coming from someone with any decent job. I've been poor many times, and I even admit it's been oddly reassuring that the sex industry option is always open to me, even though I would never actually do it. There's something called dignity* - if a woman REALLY didn't want to do that line of work, she could refuse, no matter the consequences. And that is NOT true of rape. It's a distasteful and wrong comparison not based on anything. With the one, you can just lose some money (however bad that might be) to get out, in the other there's no choice involved. Big difference to me.

*BTW I'm not calling prostitutes undignified. It's just not a job everybody can do, and many feel their bodies are too precious to make a living from it. That's why I used the word dignity.

[ 02-03-2005, 05:25 AM: Message edited by: Melusine ]
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Old 02-03-2005, 09:05 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Melusine:


Edit: forgot to add I actually agree with you quite strongly that to call this rape is wrong. That doesn't change the fact that I find the practice of forcing people to work in the sex industry or lose their jobs indefensible.
Fine, blackmail then, it's wrong, no matter what's it's called...
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Old 02-03-2005, 09:22 AM   #48
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It's all about trying to find a balance between the obligation of society to support/fund those who are unemployed and the degree to which it may choose to withdraw it's funding when an individual refuses to accept a job that society claims the individual is fit to perform.

This comes into conflict when an individual's personal beliefs or moral code conflict with the system. For example, would the same system insist that a vegan work in a slaughterhouse?

If the system is so utterly inflexible that it cannot adjust to such instances, then it should be reformed. If however, it makes adjustments to cope with such situations, then it can be seen as a dynamic situation that can adapt and change.

However, should a mutually satisfactory resolution prove impossible, then inevitably the state's determination will prevail. Though unfortunate for some, it should still benefit the majority.

No social security system I've ever come across in the real world is perfect. What it must strive to do is limit the impact of it's imperfections for the benefit of the majority.
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Old 02-03-2005, 09:29 AM   #49
Nightwing
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The problem I have is it is a decision someone may have to make. The country is actually makeing it a possibility for this to happen. The degradation of women in this world is so rampent that we don't need countries passing laws making it a penalty to not take a sex job. There should be another way. And no, people do not always have a choice in the matter, I think it is only the priviliged who think there is always a choice in any matter, because they have always been able to choose. When I say priviliged I don't mean as to how much money one has. Some people just can't mentally or physically, and there is more of them out there at least in America than most people want to admit.
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Old 02-03-2005, 10:21 AM   #50
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Quote:
Brothels failing to hire one apprentice for every 15 employees will be fined for failing to promote the sex industry.
Call me immature... but I found that very funny for some reason [img]tongue.gif[/img]

And it sounded to me as though it was merely the reporter's interpretation through most of that article.

Germany's unemployment program has been reformed to require those out of work to take jobs for which they are qualified, or lose benefits.

Quote:
Germany's unemployment program has been reformed to require those out of work to take jobs for which they are qualified, or lose benefits.
That would seem to apply to men and women, and not specifically to prostitution. The unemployed has to take ANY job that they are offered. While prostitution is one of the options, any job, be it waitressing, toilet cleaning or garbage cleaning must be accepted.

The article is just focusing on one possibility.
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