Temple of Elemental Evil beginner party

seclists · 08-16-2004, 02:38 AM

Ok, as a long-time fan of pen&paper RPGS & turn-based CRPGs, I have bought this game recently (just before it went bargain-priced, stupid impatient me!). So far I have been fairly well pleased with the game. The graphics are sumptuous, and being someone who actually dungeon-mastered the original p&p module back 1980s (too bad that I sold the module in 1990 - it would have been an invaluable source book for this game) I got a very nostalgic feeling seeing some of the illustrations converted into game world landscape. For example, the Hommlet stronghold tower was a pleasingly faithful replica of the original illustration.

Of course the game had some downsides as well. The "radial wheel" is definitely the user interface from hell, and you can't customize the default key bindings (which suck IMO) - bleh! Oh well, at least finally I can *play* the module instead of DM'ing it.

Actually this is my second party. I had to quit the first party. The culprit was mainly my Sorcerer character - having been a long-time *1st Edition* AD&D DM, I never even imagined that Charisma would be the key attribute for a magic-user. Then I started wondering why the sucker could never learn higher than level 1 spells, while the multi-class thief/wizard (who happened to suck for other reasons) was already getting level 3 spells. RTFM. ARGH. Oh, by the way, the manual sucks pretty badly, too. It gives way too little information on the individual spells, for example.

So here's the current line-up of my party, version 2. As you'll see it is a very melee-heavy party - for me, this kind of party seems to work in (A)D&D games. Strategically well placed high-scores (preferably 18s in Str, Con and Dex) and good equipment can turn the melee characters into unstoppabled tanks who need *no* spell or missile support (in most situations). If my memory is correct on this module, it should work here, too. Yeah, I know getting 18s in 3 scores will take a *lot* of rolls and that is why having to quit my first party was b*tch. I do *not* want to resort to hex-editing, though. I want to win this game honestly. I don't care how many times I will have to re-roll the characters.

Party alignment: NG
1. Human Paladin - LG. the traditional party leader for my AD&D-based CRPG games. In the 3rd edition rules, he will also be my "spokesman" (i.e., I'll develop his Diplomacy, Sense Motive etc.). Mainly a melee tank who also offers healing & turning support occasionally.
2. Half-Orc Barbarian - CG. the big, bad, ugly melee tank who kicks your a** first and asks questions later.
3. Human Cleric - NG. the main source of healing & undead turner. For this, I choose a Cleric of Pelor and give him the Healing and Sun domains. Also Improved Turning and Extra Turning for extra fun. Since clerics can wear good armour, he should be able to easily hold his own in melee combat. Heck, I could probably make a whole party of Clerics of Pelor (or Paladins), but that would be kind of boring. [img]smile.gif[/img]
4. Dwarf Rogue - N. To be later dualled into something else. Probably Fighter! Seriously. I also considered a few options, but they did not seem to add anything that I *really* wanted to the party. Sorcerer: fun until he runs out of spells. Then he would be a weakling that can hardly pull his own weight. And you can't wear armour - not even the rogue-class armour - without miscasting a spell every now and then. Druid: this option sounded slightly better since I otherwise have no access to druid spells. But then, low-level Druid spells suck anyway, and as a dual-class character he might never get the more powerful ones. In any case, the Druid definitely was the most intriguing option aside from the Fighter, but I realized that what I wanted most from this character (in addition to Rogue skills) was the ability to hold his own and hurt monsters a lot. A sorcerer could have hurt monsters a lot *until he ran out of spells* but not held his own if monsters got into melee range. Ranger: spells that suck and armour-restrictions that suck too. The druid is almost as good as a (melee) fighter and much superior as a spellcaster. Ok, so here I have it: a (Dwarf) Rogue to be dualled into a Fighter. Of course, it is difficult to sneak in heavy armour, but with a party like this who needs subtlety anyway?

5. Elf Wizard - N. Since she will be my main/only source of Arcane spells, I could not make her a Sorcerer. She needs to be able to *learn* spells from scrolls and to be a walking library of Arcane spells that she can memorize as required. This means that my party will have to rest every now and then (to update her spell selection), but I hope there will be no time limit on this game?

Comments, suggestions? Which feats to go for, which skills to develop? I am slightly inexperienced with the most current D&D 3.* ruleset. Which weapon specializations to go for? I seem to recall at least one particularly powerful sword from the original module but not its exact type...

By the way, I have updated the game to patch level 2 if that makes a difference.

[ 08-16-2004, 02:49 AM: Message edited by: seclists ]

Nerull · 08-16-2004, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by seclists:
Comments, suggestions? Which feats to go for, which skills to develop? I am slightly inexperienced with the most current D&D 3.* ruleset. Which weapon specializations to go for? I seem to recall at least one particularly powerful sword from the original module but not its exact type...

Sounds like a good party. I agree with the tank-heavy approach for lower level parties. I believe the sword you are asking about is a bastard sword.

seclists · 08-30-2004, 02:34 AM

All right, a new question.
I've encountered an Earth temple priest (can't remember the guy's name), and he wants me to do some tasks for him, like kill a snake (I had already killed it). However, if I reap the reward for this task, my Paladin becomes Fallen. Apparently I am not supposed to be doing tasks for these evil people. So does that mean that solving the actual Temple portion of the game - for my party - will be limited to hack-n-slash?

No problem, though, if that's the way to go - my current party is absolutely crushing all opposition so far. No need for NPC hirelings. I think that my party lineup is a bit overkill, really. [img]smile.gif[/img]
Btw, the most kills so far has been scored by the cleric. How so? Like this: party gets ambushed by a large pack of zombies/ghouls/ghasts -> "Witness the radiance of Pelor!" -> end combat. Mega-cheese.

the mighty stamar · 08-30-2004, 03:18 AM

Um....

Im very sorry to tell you that.... youre almost done with the game. So what youre describing as a 'beginning' party is almost your ending party. Youve already seen all the areas in the game.

If you mean by beginning, that youre going to make many more parties and go through the game with them many times... well youre much more patient than I am.

Yes, thats all there is to it. Theres the monsters in the maze and thats the end.

So while I absorb your enthusiasm and wonder about what to do.... I just have to add, that it doesnt really matter.

Theres a bad ass demon on the 4th level though thats hard to kill. Theres the evil fungous thing on the 3rd level... and thats it. No really.

Um, doing the various tasks? Pointless.

[ 08-30-2004, 03:25 AM: Message edited by: the mighty stamar ]

Nerull · 08-30-2004, 09:22 PM

All of the guys in the temple are evil. So, if your paladin starts working with evil guys of his/her own volition...

The whole idea for a good party is the hack n slash approach. It is an evil temple back on the rise. Go wipe it out. You want to do tasks? Next game, play an evil party, and work with the bad guys. But as a good party, you should be introducing them to the end of your sword.

seclists · 08-31-2004, 02:59 AM

Nerull - Thanks for the information. So it is as I suspected. No problem, then - I'll play the Temple in good ol' Billy Milano way, i.e., "kill them all and have a ball and end their f*kin' crisis".

Stamar, I am not quite sure what to make of (the most of) your post. Are you implying that I should not be enjoying this game? If so, that was uncalled for, I'm afraid. The current market is not exactly overloaded with turn-based single-player CRPGs where you can build your own party. I've been playing such games since C64 days (back in 1980s), and I have already completed almost all that are currently available. Sure, ToEE is not exactly stellar, but it is still lightyears ahead of any real-time online clickfest - for me. It allows me to plan and build my own party and control them in a turn-based environment; that alone is incentive enough to complete this game.

This is drifting off-topic, I know, but what the heck, I started this thread so I guess I get to say what's on-topic here and what's not.

So if you think that ToEE sucks, please recommend a recent modern CRPG that
-allows me to build any kind of party like (consisting of characters that *I* create instead of choosing/hiring pre-generated characters)
-offers turn-based action/combat
-is strictly single-player (not online multiplayer crap)
-is better than ToEE
I will be glad to look into it once I have completed ToEE. But the chances are I have already played & completed the game. :/ Sadly, today's game industry is geared towards online realtime games. Real-time & quick decisions/actions do not go well with strategic complexity - which I would rather have.

[ 08-31-2004, 03:05 AM: Message edited by: seclists ]

SpongeBobTheDestoyer · 08-31-2004, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by seclists:

This is drifting off-topic, I know, but what the heck, I started this thread so I guess I get to say what's on-topic here and what's not. So if you think that ToEE sucks, please recommend a recent modern CRPG that
-allows me to build any kind of party like (consisting of characters that *I* create instead of choosing/hiring pre-generated characters)
-offers turn-based action/combat
-is strictly single-player (not online multiplayer crap)
-is better than ToEE
I will be glad to look into it once I have completed ToEE. But the chances are I have already played & completed the game. :/ Sadly, today's game industry is geared towards online realtime games. Real-time & quick decisions/actions do not go well with strategic complexity - which I would rather have.

Er, umm, Baldurs Gate 2. Only the best CPRG ever. Like you said though, you've probably already played it.

the mighty stamar · 08-31-2004, 05:53 PM

If you are enjoying it I apologize.

However when you realize that the game is over, and the total content of the game is what youve already seen... I bet youll rank it low on your all time list.

Um, if you really like parts of TOEE, any of the infinity engine games are much better. NWN is better. Most CRPGs are better. If you need a D and D one, then whichever of the infinity engine games you missed are much better.

I liked lionheart more actually. But I didnt like it that much either.

seclists · 09-01-2004, 02:14 AM

Stamar, no prob. No offence taken, really.
As you and SpongeBob guess I am already familiar with the Infinity Engine games, I have actually collected them all. However, I never completed the one that is regarded the best by many, i.e., Planescape: Torment. It was too disappointing not to be able build my own party, not even really customize my main character.

As it happens, I do have NWN - I bought it less than a month ago as a bargain-price re-release. I will probably give it a try once I have completed ToEE.
For the record - for me, the greatest discovery among the recent CRPGs was, by far, Wizardry 8. Once I got it (again, a bargain-price box - I normally wait until games go bargain-price before I buy them, unless I have no game to play at the moment), I completed it twice in a row. It really was that good. Then I tried Wizards & Warriors, and hated it. It looked and felt better than Wizardry 8, but the abysmal user interface ruined it (made it unplayable). I quit W&W practically as soon as I reached the crypt.

ScottG · 09-01-2004, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by seclists:
So if you think that ToEE sucks, please recommend a recent modern CRPG that
-allows me to build any kind of party like (consisting of characters that *I* create instead of choosing/hiring pre-generated characters)
-offers turn-based action/combat
-is strictly single-player (not online multiplayer crap)
-is better than ToEE
I will be glad to look into it once I have completed ToEE. But the chances are I have already played & completed the game. :/ Sadly, today's game industry is geared towards online realtime games. Real-time & quick decisions/actions do not go well with strategic complexity - which I would rather have.

While I don't think that ToEE sucks..(I enjoyed it - but very limited in scope) you might try the Disciples series of games - and I think they are better than ToEE (but quite different) and offer a LOT more "play-time".

08-30-2004, 09:22 PM	#5
Nerull Lord Ao Join Date: May 17, 2001 Location: San Antonio, Texas, USA Age: 53 Posts: 2,069	All of the guys in the temple are evil. So, if your paladin starts working with evil guys of his/her own volition... The whole idea for a good party is the hack n slash approach. It is an evil temple back on the rise. Go wipe it out. You want to do tasks? Next game, play an evil party, and work with the bad guys. But as a good party, you should be introducing them to the end of your sword. __________________ [img]\"ubb/noncgi/smiles/new/ghoul.gif\" alt=\" - \" /><br /><br />\"The middle class pays all of the taxes, does all of the work.<br />The lower class exists just to scare the middle class.\"<br />-George Carlin

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08-16-2004, 02:38 AM	#1
seclists Dungeon Master Join Date: December 18, 2003 Location: NA Age: 53 Posts: 57	Ok, as a long-time fan of pen&paper RPGS & turn-based CRPGs, I have bought this game recently (just before it went bargain-priced, stupid impatient me!). So far I have been fairly well pleased with the game. The graphics are sumptuous, and being someone who actually dungeon-mastered the original p&p module back 1980s (too bad that I sold the module in 1990 - it would have been an invaluable source book for this game) I got a very nostalgic feeling seeing some of the illustrations converted into game world landscape. For example, the Hommlet stronghold tower was a pleasingly faithful replica of the original illustration. Of course the game had some downsides as well. The "radial wheel" is definitely the user interface from hell, and you can't customize the default key bindings (which suck IMO) - bleh! Oh well, at least finally I can play the module instead of DM'ing it. Actually this is my second party. I had to quit the first party. The culprit was mainly my Sorcerer character - having been a long-time 1st Edition AD&D DM, I never even imagined that Charisma would be the key attribute for a magic-user. Then I started wondering why the sucker could never learn higher than level 1 spells, while the multi-class thief/wizard (who happened to suck for other reasons) was already getting level 3 spells. RTFM. ARGH. Oh, by the way, the manual sucks pretty badly, too. It gives way too little information on the individual spells, for example. So here's the current line-up of my party, version 2. As you'll see it is a very melee-heavy party - for me, this kind of party seems to work in (A)D&D games. Strategically well placed high-scores (preferably 18s in Str, Con and Dex) and good equipment can turn the melee characters into unstoppabled tanks who need no spell or missile support (in most situations). If my memory is correct on this module, it should work here, too. Yeah, I know getting 18s in 3 scores will take a lot of rolls and that is why having to quit my first party was btch. I do not* want to resort to hex-editing, though. I want to win this game honestly. I don't care how many times I will have to re-roll the characters. Party alignment: NG 1. Human Paladin - LG. the traditional party leader for my AD&D-based CRPG games. In the 3rd edition rules, he will also be my "spokesman" (i.e., I'll develop his Diplomacy, Sense Motive etc.). Mainly a melee tank who also offers healing & turning support occasionally. 2. Half-Orc Barbarian - CG. the big, bad, ugly melee tank who kicks your a** first and asks questions later. 3. Human Cleric - NG. the main source of healing & undead turner. For this, I choose a Cleric of Pelor and give him the Healing and Sun domains. Also Improved Turning and Extra Turning for extra fun. Since clerics can wear good armour, he should be able to easily hold his own in melee combat. Heck, I could probably make a whole party of Clerics of Pelor (or Paladins), but that would be kind of boring. [img]smile.gif[/img] 4. Dwarf Rogue - N. To be later dualled into something else. Probably Fighter! Seriously. I also considered a few options, but they did not seem to add anything that I really wanted to the party. Sorcerer: fun until he runs out of spells. Then he would be a weakling that can hardly pull his own weight. And you can't wear armour - not even the rogue-class armour - without miscasting a spell every now and then. Druid: this option sounded slightly better since I otherwise have no access to druid spells. But then, low-level Druid spells suck anyway, and as a dual-class character he might never get the more powerful ones. In any case, the Druid definitely was the most intriguing option aside from the Fighter, but I realized that what I wanted most from this character (in addition to Rogue skills) was the ability to hold his own and hurt monsters a lot. A sorcerer could have hurt monsters a lot until he ran out of spells but not held his own if monsters got into melee range. Ranger: spells that suck and armour-restrictions that suck too. The druid is almost as good as a (melee) fighter and much superior as a spellcaster. Ok, so here I have it: a (Dwarf) Rogue to be dualled into a Fighter. Of course, it is difficult to sneak in heavy armour, but with a party like this who needs subtlety anyway? 5. Elf Wizard - N. Since she will be my main/only source of Arcane spells, I could not make her a Sorcerer. She needs to be able to learn spells from scrolls and to be a walking library of Arcane spells that she can memorize as required. This means that my party will have to rest every now and then (to update her spell selection), but I hope there will be no time limit on this game? Comments, suggestions? Which feats to go for, which skills to develop? I am slightly inexperienced with the most current D&D 3.* ruleset. Which weapon specializations to go for? I seem to recall at least one particularly powerful sword from the original module but not its exact type... By the way, I have updated the game to patch level 2 if that makes a difference. [ 08-16-2004, 02:49 AM: Message edited by: seclists ]

08-30-2004, 02:34 AM	#3
seclists Dungeon Master Join Date: December 18, 2003 Location: NA Age: 53 Posts: 57	All right, a new question. I've encountered an Earth temple priest (can't remember the guy's name), and he wants me to do some tasks for him, like kill a snake (I had already killed it). However, if I reap the reward for this task, my Paladin becomes Fallen. Apparently I am not supposed to be doing tasks for these evil people. So does that mean that solving the actual Temple portion of the game - for my party - will be limited to hack-n-slash? No problem, though, if that's the way to go - my current party is absolutely crushing all opposition so far. No need for NPC hirelings. I think that my party lineup is a bit overkill, really. [img]smile.gif[/img] Btw, the most kills so far has been scored by the cleric. How so? Like this: party gets ambushed by a large pack of zombies/ghouls/ghasts -> "Witness the radiance of Pelor!" -> end combat. Mega-cheese.

08-30-2004, 03:18 AM	#4
the mighty stamar Avatar Join Date: February 12, 2003 Location: hades Age: 53 Posts: 583	Um.... Im very sorry to tell you that.... youre almost done with the game. So what youre describing as a 'beginning' party is almost your ending party. Youve already seen all the areas in the game. If you mean by beginning, that youre going to make many more parties and go through the game with them many times... well youre much more patient than I am. Yes, thats all there is to it. Theres the monsters in the maze and thats the end. So while I absorb your enthusiasm and wonder about what to do.... I just have to add, that it doesnt really matter. Theres a bad ass demon on the 4th level though thats hard to kill. Theres the evil fungous thing on the 3rd level... and thats it. No really. Um, doing the various tasks? Pointless. [ 08-30-2004, 03:25 AM: Message edited by: the mighty stamar ]

08-31-2004, 02:59 AM	#6
seclists Dungeon Master Join Date: December 18, 2003 Location: NA Age: 53 Posts: 57	Nerull - Thanks for the information. So it is as I suspected. No problem, then - I'll play the Temple in good ol' Billy Milano way, i.e., "kill them all and have a ball and end their fkin' crisis". Stamar, I am not quite sure what to make of (the most of) your post. Are you implying that I should not be enjoying this game? If so, that was uncalled for, I'm afraid. The current market is not exactly overloaded with turn-based single-player CRPGs where you can build your own party. I've been playing such games since C64 days (back in 1980s), and I have already completed almost all that are currently available. Sure, ToEE is not exactly stellar, but it is still lightyears ahead of any real-time online clickfest - for me. It allows me to plan and build my own party and control them in a turn-based environment; that alone is incentive enough to complete this game. This is drifting off-topic, I know, but what the heck, I started this thread so I guess I get to say what's on-topic here and what's not. So if you think that ToEE sucks, please recommend a recent modern CRPG that -allows me to build any kind of party like (consisting of characters that I* create instead of choosing/hiring pre-generated characters) -offers turn-based action/combat -is strictly single-player (not online multiplayer crap) -is better than ToEE I will be glad to look into it once I have completed ToEE. But the chances are I have already played & completed the game. :/ Sadly, today's game industry is geared towards online realtime games. Real-time & quick decisions/actions do not go well with strategic complexity - which I would rather have. [ 08-31-2004, 03:05 AM: Message edited by: seclists ]

08-31-2004, 05:53 PM	#8
the mighty stamar Avatar Join Date: February 12, 2003 Location: hades Age: 53 Posts: 583	If you are enjoying it I apologize. However when you realize that the game is over, and the total content of the game is what youve already seen... I bet youll rank it low on your all time list. Um, if you really like parts of TOEE, any of the infinity engine games are much better. NWN is better. Most CRPGs are better. If you need a D and D one, then whichever of the infinity engine games you missed are much better. I liked lionheart more actually. But I didnt like it that much either.

09-01-2004, 02:14 AM	#9
seclists Dungeon Master Join Date: December 18, 2003 Location: NA Age: 53 Posts: 57	Stamar, no prob. No offence taken, really. As you and SpongeBob guess I am already familiar with the Infinity Engine games, I have actually collected them all. However, I never completed the one that is regarded the best by many, i.e., Planescape: Torment. It was too disappointing not to be able build my own party, not even really customize my main character. As it happens, I do have NWN - I bought it less than a month ago as a bargain-price re-release. I will probably give it a try once I have completed ToEE. For the record - for me, the greatest discovery among the recent CRPGs was, by far, Wizardry 8. Once I got it (again, a bargain-price box - I normally wait until games go bargain-price before I buy them, unless I have no game to play at the moment), I completed it twice in a row. It really was that good. Then I tried Wizards & Warriors, and hated it. It looked and felt better than Wizardry 8, but the abysmal user interface ruined it (made it unplayable). I quit W&W practically as soon as I reached the crypt.

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