Does your country have a "pledge of allegiance"?

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Luvian: quote: Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: No one is forced to do it, it is voluntary, completely voluntary, and the people who don't do it are not stoned or even spit upon by normal Americans.

So, those that don't do it are not normal americans? So this mean you don't have to d it, but if you don't, you're not a real american? [/QUOTE]But you didn't quote the entire idea. :wack: [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Here's the whole idea....

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: No one is forced to do it, it is voluntary, completely voluntary, and the people who don't do it are not stoned or even spit upon by normal Americans. Don't believe the hype. Can a news story be found were some lunatics acted out against someone who didn't participate in the pledge? Of course, but is that the norm? Absolutely not. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Normal Americans wouldn't force and/or punish those who choose not to participate in the pledge, just as other normal Americans who don't feel the need to say the pledge wouldn't try to stop and/or punish someone who chooses to say the pledge.

I can see how the "Normal Americans" comment could have been misinterpreted, so just to clarify, the normal in my previous post refers to those normal Americans who respect other normal Americans right NOT to say the pledge. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ 06-11-2003, 07:14 AM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

[norompanlasolas]

in argentina when you graduate from highschool you pledge your allegiance to the flag in a ceremony (supposedly because thats when you are old enough to make the decision for yourself).

also the argentinian anthem is quite... belicose. it was composed during the war of independence against the spaniards first and the english later, and it ends with the words "with strength and honor we shall live, or we swear to die with glory" repeated 3 times. its not bad rithmically actually, and it can get quite emotional. now its sung at sporting events mostly.

[ 06-11-2003, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: norompanlasolas ]

[spydar]

personally I'm a big fan of Australia's unofficial anthem "Waltzing Matilda" c'mon, how could you not like that song???

[Link]

To both Ronn and Timber (I know you're gonna show up here eventually and start your lawyer stuff ): I seem to remember that there was this father of a child who refused to send his daughter/son/whatever to school because of the pledge of allegiance every day. He didn't want his kid to be 'indoctrinated' or something like that, by being forced to say the pledge of allegiance every day.
I can't help to be confused if you guys say it's voluntary and this father prevents his kid from going to school, when the kid can also refuse to say the pledge. I can be mistaken, of course, but I just wish this could be clarified, at least for my own sake.

On a more general note; why is it that the Americans (not only Americans on this forum, but generally speaking as well) feel so attacked when people from another country disagree with what you think? I mean; I look at the first American reply in this thread (no offense, and it's just an example) and the first thing that is done is quoting another one's opinion and fall into heavy defense, when it's just a stated opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. We are not attacking you, and by jumping to defense mode: code red, you only make it harder for yourself than is necessary. In my opinion, at least.

[ 06-11-2003, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: Link ]

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Link: On a more general note; why is it that the Americans (not only Americans on this forum, but generally speaking as well) feel so attacked when people from another country disagree with what you think? I mean; I look at the first American reply in this thread (no offense, and it's just an example) and the first thing that is done is quoting another one's opinion and fall into heavy defense, when it's just a stated opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. We are not attacking you, and by jumping to defense mode: code red, you only make it harder for yourself than is necessary. In my opinion, at least.

For the record someone could post "America is the great satan, in my opinion" And I might blink an eye and I may pity them, but my self-esteem would not be dampered and they are so wrong that I could only provide no response to keep my dignity.

Patriotism, for some, is the merging of personal identity with a national identity. This is part of the reason people take it personally, because to them it is personal.

Pledging metaphoricly being linked with racism or nazism is a concept that some wouldn't instantly grasp. Where as the misuse of patriotism under the guise of nationalism practically destroyed Europe, so I cant blame some people for drawing conclusions about the concept on the whole. There are dangers in unchecked patriotism.

I can also see the racism metaphor as well, but its more discrimination, than racism. Some patriots have a "holier than though" elitist aditude about their nation's structure, policies, and leadership. People do discriminate based on nationality. This type of discrimination becoming institutionalized another danger of unchecked patriotism.


What those some might want to consider is that the strength of American and British Patriotism: The love of country and for some, being willing to die in it's defense, did defeat those nazis.

edit[no disrespect to the many patriots of nations not mentioned who resisted the nazi's}

Eventually we are overcoming racism as well. I think democracy and tolerance creates the potential of a different brand of national identity and patriotism that is inoffensive. Not perfect, no one and nothing is. Loving ones country is not and need not be racism or facism.

[ 06-11-2003, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

[Leonis]

Originally posted by spydar: personally I'm a big fan of Australia's unofficial anthem "Waltzing Matilda" c'mon, how could you not like that song???

It's almost like a pledge of alliegance isn't it? "We pledge to die as free men than live as criminals!" Yeah! I love that jolly fellow!

[Luvian]

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: quote: Originally posted by Luvian: quote: Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: No one is forced to do it, it is voluntary, completely voluntary, and the people who don't do it are not stoned or even spit upon by normal Americans.

So, those that don't do it are not normal americans? So this mean you don't have to d it, but if you don't, you're not a real american? [/QUOTE]But you didn't quote the entire idea. :wack: [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Here's the whole idea....

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: No one is forced to do it, it is voluntary, completely voluntary, and the people who don't do it are not stoned or even spit upon by normal Americans. Don't believe the hype. Can a news story be found were some lunatics acted out against someone who didn't participate in the pledge? Of course, but is that the norm? Absolutely not.

Normal Americans wouldn't force and/or punish those who choose not to participate in the pledge, just as other normal Americans who don't feel the need to say the pledge wouldn't try to stop and/or punish someone who chooses to say the pledge.

I can see how the "Normal Americans" comment could have been misinterpreted, so just to clarify, the normal in my previous post refers to those normal Americans who respect other normal Americans right NOT to say the pledge. [/QUOTE]I wasn't really serious, I knew your intention, but you have to admit that that quote made a tempting target. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Reeka]

Well, they could leave the god part out and it wouldn't bother me. The part "and to the republic for which it stands" to me is the important part. You are pledging allegiance to the "idea" of the United States. The flag is just a symbol of the "idea" of America. The national anthem is another matter. It is a bit violent, rockets and bombs and such in it. Of course, there are other examples of violent national anthems. I believe the French national anthem has something in it about streets running with blood, but I could not be remembering correctly.

I actually had a feeling that we were rather singular in having a "pledge of allegiance" thing.

[The Hierophant]

Heh heh, New Zealand's national anthem is 'God Defend New Zealand', which can be roughly interpreted as 'please don't hurt us'

Pledging allegiance is fine in that it solidifies local group ties. Sort of 'we're all members of the same pack'. It can theoretically work to establish strong communal bonds and keep people in localised communities together, as well as form a sense of brotherhood amongst people who might not have anything to do with one another otherwise, which is a constructive thing in my opinion.

Now, the pledge isn't, and should never be, forced upon any individual. Some people have said along the lines of 'but people might not like me if I don't say the pledge', well so what? You are responsible for your own communal ties with the people you live with, both in your home and in your society. If your beliefs lead you to risk social isolation (such as refusing to say the pledge) then so be it. Have the willpower to see your convictions through, no matter what negativity might get thrown your way in doing so. Personal responsibility is a bitch man, but it goes with the territory if you truly want to be 'free'.

[ 06-11-2003, 09:45 PM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

[Bardan the Slayer]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: You are responsible for your own communal ties with the people you live with, both in your home and in your society. If your beliefs lead you to risk social isolation (such as refusing to say the pledge) then so be it. Have the willpower to see your convictions through, no matter what negativity might get thrown your way in doing so. Personal responsibility is a bitch man, but it goes with the territory if you truly want to be 'free'.

Yes, it is, anmd I have no problem with America having a pledge (of course, if I did, I know you would all cease and desist immediately ). I absolutely agree with your ideasd about personal responsibility, but try explaining that to a 7-year old who gets taunted in the playground because he doesn't join in. I don't think he'll grasp it. That's what gets me a bit about it - it's institutionalised in the schools. It takles youngesters rtight at the moment when they are the most impressionable and the least likely to have the force of personality to dissent, and impresses on them the kind of "We'll all spit on anyone who dares suggest there is somehting wrong with our country" mentality. "One nation, indivisable" - in other words, this suggests to the youngsters "If you dissent with America on some issue, you are breaking the pledge, and are not a true American"

Of course, this is all a foreigner's view on it all. Make of it what you will [img]smile.gif[/img]