Thoughts on the US of an Aussie PM

[Davros]

OK - so I am sure that my favourite CURMudgeon and his cronies (Attalus et al) will like to read another opinion. The following article was lifted from our daily news service :

PM criticises US on guns
November 23, 2002

PRIME MINISTER John Howard today continued to heap praise on the United States for its leadership in world counter-terrorism efforts but criticised its record on handgun control.

Addressing the NSW State Council of the Liberal Party in Sydney today, Mr Howard said the United Nations was re-energised into doing something about Iraq because of the leadership of the US.

"I have little doubt that the 15-0 vote in the Security Council of the United Nations was ultimately a consequence of skilful diplomacy and strength exercised by the United States," Mr Howard told delegates.

"It's easy ... to criticise the Americans. When you are the most powerful country in the world people somehow or other feel a license to criticise you and to find fault.

"But in the end if you look at the scoresheet of history the United States has made a remarkable and constant contribution to the preservation of freedom around the world."

He said those who understood and remembered the history of Australia knew of the debt of gratitude it owed to the United States and "the people of that great country".

But Mr Howard, raising the issue of handgun control, criticised the attitude of the US to possession of weapons.

He hoped to bring some finality and sharpness to Australia's gun laws at the premiers' conference on December 6.

"I hold a very strong view that the overwhelming majority of Australians do not want this country to go down the American path when it comes to guns," Mr Howard said.

"They do not want that. There is much that I admire about America and there is one thing that I do not admire and that is their extraordinary attitude towards the possession of weapons."

There was no doubt about the direct correlation between firearm availability and the very high murder rate in the US, he said.

Mr Howard said there was already evidence that the ban on "longarms" implemented in 1996 had begun to reduce the murder rate related to guns in Australia.

"There's every reason to believe that if we can go much further in relation to handguns then we can lay the basis of a set of nationally consistent laws that will provide a safer Australian domestic environment," he said.

He said that could be done without interfering in any way with the legitimate rights and aspirations of genuine sporting shooters within the Australian community.

AAP

Now all that stuff above is presented as our PM's postion.

I am sure we could turn the thread into yet another "my stats are better than your stats" thang, and maybe even harken back to the constitutional right to ram bears - my view is that that has been done to death a thousand times with no changes in opinion that I have ever noticed. I have given my 2c worth before - here I present the 2c of the guy I voted for.

[khazadman]

The Australians will only be protected from the occasional rampaging lunatic. They will not be safe from criminals or their own government. That's why our constitution lists the right to own weapons behind only the freedom of speech.

[Bardan the Slayer]

The reason criminals are so dangerous in the US is because they *assume* any householder or (obviously) police officer will have a gun due to the gun laws, so they take one along too, and shoot first and ask questions later. In countries with strict gun law, the risk of getting shot as the victim of a crime is marginal compared to the US. If you want the right to own a gun to protect you, you have to accept that this means every criminal will carry his own gun to counter you. In strict gun control countires, the criminals don't carry guns because they simply see no need to.

Oh, and the government fails to push us around too. When the poll tax was introduced, the mass demonstrations were effective in getting it scrapped, and we didn't need weapons to convince the government that we ruled the counrty, not them.

Anyway, I've banged on along these lines before. This was just a brief reminder (were it needed ) of my feelings on the matter.

[Attalus]

Well, as curmugeonly as I can be, Davros, I'm rather "wet" on gun control. Possibly my years as a trauma surgeon have influenced me, as they have my views on abortion. I do own a handgun, for home protection, but I would like it if we could only have rifles, shotguns, etc. But, there is no recanning the worms at this point. BTW, I appreciated your PM's comments about the USA otherwise. I have been told by several older Aussies, one an ex-military airline pilot, that his generations of Oz-ites remember how close the Japanese came to Australia until the Battle of the Coral Sea derailed them. I myself have always rememberd H.M.A.S Canberra, and how she lies on the bottom of Savo Gulf with three US cruisers. He gets a pass from me.

[johnny]

Bardan, what makes you think burglars and other criminals here don't carry firearms ? Better think again.

[LennonCook]

For once, I agree with Howard. I don`t like the GST, I don`t like the privatisation of telstra, but I *do* like not having to worry about every Tom, Dick, and Harry waving a gun at my head.

[Ronn_Bman]

I think Aussie's should be allowed to send PM's just like everyone else. [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

Actually, I think he sounds like a pretty decent guy and he makes some good points. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Davros: ...my view is that (gun control) has been done to death a thousand times with no changes in opinion that I have ever noticed.

This is so true.

There are some issues people believe in so completely that, while discussion of the subject may prove interesting\exasperating\informative, no one's point of view will be changed based on the exchange; no matter how vile or reasonable. [img]smile.gif[/img]

In my opinion, the Triumvirate(I used to use "Axis", but that term is now taken ) of Evil debating issues that are seldom worth discussing are, in no particular order, abortion, capital punishment, and of course, gun control(well maybe that is alphabetical order).

The opinions regarding these issues are most probably decided based on information yet to be discovered, but encoded into the individual's DNA strand. [img]smile.gif[/img]

People's ideas may actually change regarding these issues, but it's doubtful, and if it does happens, it will be based on an internal change not information from an external source.

That isn't to say I haven't argued any of those issue...lol.

[antryg]

A very thoughtful and well reasoned statement. It is exactly the way that allies should disagree as well. I don't own a gun and never have. I don't go so far as to want to completely outlaw guns though. I tend to advocate tighter controls with mandatory weapons classes and refreshers as well as demonstrating the ability to field strip a weapon before issuing a license. I would be happy if we could just get rid of the automatic weapons and concealed hand guns.

[Mellagar]

Where there are people, there will be weapons. Accept it, understand it, then move on.

[Davros]

Originally posted by antryg: I tend to advocate tighter controls with mandatory weapons classes and refreshers as well as demonstrating the ability to field strip a weapon before issuing a license. I would be happy if we could just get rid of the automatic weapons and concealed hand guns.

You have in these two sentences summarised the goals of our Prime Minister - he is not pushing the line of total abolition either.