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Old 12-28-2004, 08:26 AM   #51
johnny
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Now that's not fair Cerek, why did you have to come up with two of the league's biggest guys ? I bet she can dunk on Allen Iverson, or Stephon Marbury. Is Mugsy still playing btw ? [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]
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Old 12-28-2004, 12:26 PM   #52
Thoran
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Quote:
Originally posted by Q'alooaith:
I find it sickening, professional sports should not be segragated (well maybe mud wrestling should be)..

Point is, opertunity should be equal, skill shouold determin who get's to play rather than gender..
You do realize that such a policy would spell the end of most women's professional sports? The LPGA is a professional organization, the women competing make money... not as much as the PGA but more than enough to entice less capable pro men to compete. The topic was already broached not long after the Annika thing happened, a young man tried to participate in an LPGA event. He was denied, but if the PGA was forced to accept women then the prescedent will be set... equal treatement will force the LPGA to open it's doors and be overwhelmed (except for a few top women) by men seeking to make enough money to make a go of it. And to the poster who thinks men would be too embarrased... LOL... we're talking about money here, most people don't worry much about appearances when there's tens of thousands of dollars on the line. What happens to the next generation of female talent when their league is swamped with men? Could Annika had gotten to where she is if she'd been competing against men just for the ability to play and make enough money at it to continue to develop her skills?

The law of unintended consequences is primed for major mayhem if gender blind professional sports becomes the norm.

Quote:
Originally posted by Q'alooaith:
Some of you have mentioned some women would be better than some men, well let them play instead of the men that they are better than..

I read half these post's and I see the worst kind of sexism, you play pretend that your for equal opertunity but then say "but they are not good enough anyway" or "they would get hurt"..

It's comments like these that get me so angry, your acting high and mighty saying men are better than women "because" with no reasons, but they should be treated as equal, upto a point..

You have All gone way down in my estimation.
Sexism schmexism... anytime someone posts something another person doesn't want to hear they have to throw out some 'ism' where it doesn't belong. Don't paint people with your mile wide brush, it makes you look silly. I have not seen any sexism in any of the prior posts... no "women deserve to be in the kitchen, barefoot and pregnant" posts. No "women aint smurt enuf to play no football" posts. No "Men are just superior to women in everything" posts. There were a couple posts that mentioned that women would be injured more often, there were a couple posts that mentioned that women would have trouble competing in highly physical events. It is not sexist to state the reality of the situation, however it is silly to pretend there are no differences between the sexes... hopefully that's not what you were trying to do.

Reality - When a 120lb person (male or female) is augered into the field by someone weighing up to twice as much there's going to be a higher likelyhood of that small framed person getting injured. The same holds true when the 230lb person is splattered by someone going 400+. In American Football they have rules to protect the quarterback because of this phenomena.
Reality - Women tend to be quite a bit smaller than men on average. There aren't many <120lb men, there are a LOT of <120lb women. There are not many FIT >180lb women, there are a LOT of FIT >180lb men.


I enjoy many watching womens sports (LPGA plays in my town every year, it's a great show), I don't want an ill concieved attempt at dictating membership policies to ruin that.

It's a good thing people aren't pushing for gender blindness in all sports (it's only the ones with the $$$$)... swimming (my sport) is a good example of how bad an idea this is. If women didn't have their own swimming events there would be no women competing at a high level.

Mens 100m breast record (short course) : 57.47
Womens 100m breast record (short course) : 1:05.09

I swam 1:05 breast times in high school... there are thousands (maybe tens of thousands of) of men between those times. Suggesting women and men should compete evenly in swimming would get you laughed at (by both)... it'd be TOTALLY unfair. Jones Leisel worked every bit as hard for her world record as Ed Moses did for his, and she deserves her record... not to be way down on a list of "Nongenderspecific swimming records"

Ahh... but perhaps you'd say you didn't mean those sorts of sports... only the one's where some women can be competitive eh? Well unless you're suggesting that we should allow women to play mens sports but not allow men to play womens sports (which WOULD be sexist) you'll end up with the same thing happening in most physically intensive sports... except for the Annika's out there women (many who worked extremely hard) will be overwhelmed by mediocre men because of the realities of the human body.
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Old 12-28-2004, 12:28 PM   #53
Cerek
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Quote:
Originally posted by johnny:
Now that's not fair Cerek, why did you have to come up with two of the league's biggest guys ? I bet she can dunk on Allen Iverson, or Stephon Marbury. Is Mugsy still playing btw ? [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]
You're right, that isn't fair. I'm not sure if Mutumbo is even playing now or not. But there IS a chance she would have to face Shaq sooner or later.

Yeah, she probably could dunk on Allen Iverson. Then again, he isn't going to be guarding the post against her. And - no offense to Lisa Leslie - but I seriously doubt she could stop Iverson's crossover dribble. He'd be around her and gone to the hole in a minute.

Of course, just to be completely fair, Leslie probably wouldn't be guarding Iverson to begin with. More likely, she would guard one of the forwards. And she may have the size and speed to keep up with them.
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Old 12-28-2004, 05:38 PM   #54
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I'd have to say that Thoran's post is the best I've read in quite a while.
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Old 12-29-2004, 03:49 AM   #55
wellard
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Degrader:
I'd have to say that Thoran's post is the best I've read in quite a while.
It WAS a well put argument, hard but fair and polite. And most other posts have been very high quality too. Now if this was a test post to see if the current events forum could and should be brought back to Gen Discussion then I would say it has passed the test so far

The board is better for having more contributions from the fairer half like Xan, Stormymystic, Q'alooaith and Aelia Jusa on topical subjects ....or is that being sexist [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]
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Old 12-29-2004, 05:20 AM   #56
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The question falls into two mutually-exclusive areas.

1) Is it fair? Obviously, not. If an individual has the talent, he/she/it/them/they/fill in the blank should have the opportunity to compete and make the big bucks -- even in swimming, although I don't think the bucks are very big there. Otherwise, we might just as well ban "the hicks, the spics, and the niggers" as well.

2) Is it common sense? Would it "ruin sport," as many have suggested? Probably, if equality were implemented with strict fairness. The outstanding headliners of women's sports would move up where the big money is, and the women's venues would suffer a drastic loss of popularity and support. If the women's sports were also made equal-opportunity, then they probably would become filled with men not quite good enough to make the grade in the "big" league. Embarassment notwithstanding; as Thoran says. Money can compensate for an awful lot of loss of face.

Despite this, I don't like the concept of banning anyone who wants to play. If they can make the grade, more power to them. Whether or not many women would make the grade is a separate issue and not germane to the discussion. Even if NONE were capable of competing at the level of the top male athletes, they shouldn't be "protected" from trying.

But reality is a harsh thing. Men will not change their minds just because they aren't fair. This has been shown in the military -- men DO act differently in conflict with women, and command decisions ARE made on the basis of gender. To say "it shouldn't be so" is to confuse "ought" with "is."

However, no progress can be made without the "experiment" being tried. I don't think professional sport can really be "ruined." It is just too popular a diversion. That changing the rules to allow women to play will cause short-term adjustments is clear; that such adjustments will destroy football or any other sport is senseless alarmism -- much the same was said when "Negroes" were "allowed" to play in US professional sports. And they're still going strong regardless.

But the possible "ruination" of women's sport is likely, I think, unless we face reality and admit that equality can't be a two-way street. Opponents of women in men's sport claim that if such a rule were implemented, then women's sports must be opened to men. I really don't see the logic of that. Oh, it has a nice, idealistic, internal "fairness" to it, but to me it smells more like a manufactured irrefutable retort made by men who don't want to see women competing with the boys. I think there should be a shift in attitude, where the "men's" leagues are open to anyone of talent, regardless of race, creed, sexual preference, or whether or not they stand or sit when shaking hands. With women's leagues to determine the best athletes among women -- leagues that should NOT be open to ANYONE competing in the "other" league. There is the danger, as I mentioned above, that the best female talent would then desert the women's leagues altogether, but it is not necessarily so. Annika said even before Colonial that she would stay with the LPGA whatever happened. The woman's not dumb, she'd rather stay where she can make a couple million a year than play where she'd have to struggle to make the cut every week. While the women's leagues would no doubt lose a fair number of their best players to the "other" league, the majority of the women would stay in their own league and still be able to provide an entertaining product.

The transition would be chaotic, mind you. It would take a lot of short-term adjustments before the change was accepted. But then, all change is like that, whether it's a change in playoff structure or a change in player eligibility.

-- Mal
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Old 12-30-2004, 06:36 PM   #57
wellard
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Quote:
Originally posted by Malthaussen:
The question falls into two mutually-exclusive areas.






But the possible "ruination" of women's sport is likely, I think, unless we face reality and admit that equality can't be a two-way street. Opponents of women in men's sport claim that if such a rule were implemented, then women's sports must be opened to men. I really don't see the logic of that. Oh, it has a nice, idealistic, internal "fairness" to it, but to me it smells more like a manufactured irrefutable retort made by men who don't want to see women competing with the boys. I think there should be a shift in attitude, where the "men's" leagues are open to anyone of talent, regardless of race, creed, sexual preference, or whether or not they stand or sit when shaking hands. With women's leagues to determine the best athletes among women --

The transition would be chaotic, mind you. It would take a lot of short-term adjustments before the change was accepted. But then, all change is like that, whether it's a change in playoff structure or a change in player eligibility.

-- Mal
Excellent post Mal.

As I stated before, the line that will have to be drawn is probably when the sport becomes a full time paid job. Of course that leaves a grey area / legal minefield in semi pro leagues when a small bonus payment is made but it leaves amateur sport free to be segregated by sex. And as for the fairness.... well It's a big tough old world out there [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img]
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Old 12-30-2004, 06:40 PM   #58
johnny
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Give it up already dude, it's never gonna happen.
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