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Old 06-24-2003, 01:27 AM   #11
John D Harris
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There's a reason that the arrested are handcuffed. 2-3 weeks ago one of those sweet young thangs killed 2 officers and a 911 phone operator in Fayette, Alabama. While he was being finger printed and the cuffs removed, a stugle insued and the arrested child got one of the officers guns then killed three humans. All the "feelings" and righious indignation won't bring those three lives back or stop the sorrow of the families of the three people killed. So I would like to see the mental gymnastics of how not handcuffing an arrested person can possibly be squared with the if it saves one life logic so prevalant with the "feeling" crowd.
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Old 06-24-2003, 02:11 AM   #12
Grojlach
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Quote:
Originally posted by John D Harris:


Yes I did read the article, so what? Kids arrested are treated like other kids arrested. Guess what there are bad people everywhere and some abuse thier power, they WILL pay for thier abuse one way or another.
Let's just put it this way: if your children ever get arrested for murder (which is in my opinion many times worse than trying to enter a country illegally), they will most likely get a far better treatment than these children; because that's part of their basic human rights. There is a reason why children have those rights, in the hope they won't end up traumatized, scarred and badly influenced for the rest of their lives, and because they may not be fully aware of the actual implications of what they've done at their age... And you can't compare illegally trying to enter the US because you're fleeing for your life with any *serious* crime, either.
If there was ever going to be a case in which you had to flee for your life from the US, be it war or whatever (not necessarily because you did something wrong), and you and your kids end up in another country, would you like the idea of your children being treated like dirt, having to "mingle" with and being treated as actual serious adult criminals, being physically abused and perhaps even ending up traumatized for the rest of their lives, long before they were even supposed to lose their childlike innocence, effectively taking away some of the happiest years of their youth?

Quote:
There's a reason that the arrested are handcuffed. 2-3 weeks ago one of those sweet young thangs killed 2 officers and a 911 phone operator in Fayette, Alabama. While he was being finger printed and the cuffs removed, a stugle insued and the arrested child got one of the officers guns then killed three humans. All the "feelings" and righious indignation won't bring those three lives back or stop the sorrow of the families of the three people killed. So I would like to see the mental gymnastics of how not handcuffing an arrested person can possibly be squared with the if it saves one life logic so prevalant with the "feeling" crowd.
Ah yes, and one out of 5000 "snapping" surely is justification enough to treat the other 4999 as adult criminals. The fact that at the same time they're violating the same human rights agreements from which they expect that the entire world abides by them and which usually sets the "evil" countries apart from the "good" countries hardly matters, er? [img]graemlins/1disgust.gif[/img]

[ 06-24-2003, 02:12 AM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]
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Old 06-24-2003, 11:14 AM   #13
wellard
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Just a note to say LOA and crimsonblade's post were so over the top to take seriously, Sarcasam is funny [img]tongue.gif[/img]

The question of children as illeagal immigrants is a big topic for debate in Australia too. With the minister for immagration, Phillip "whats a heart" Ruddock, jailing all children with there parents for years. A blight on the country which we like to call 'lucky' and on our national motto which is "Fair go, mate"

I will post a link or two to our hidden shame tomorrow. Zzzzz time for bed [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img]
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Old 06-24-2003, 11:23 AM   #14
Donut
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Quote:
Originally posted by wellard:
Just a note to say LOA and crimsonblade's post were so over the top to take seriously, Sarcasam is funny [img]tongue.gif[/img]

:
I'm afraid that one of them was serious. The other, although he has strong views on illegal immigration, was being his usual over the top self.
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Old 06-24-2003, 11:56 AM   #15
Cerek the Barbaric
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Join Date: October 29, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by Grojlach:
quote:
Originally posted by John D. Harris:
There's a reason that the arrested are handcuffed. 2-3 weeks ago one of those sweet young thangs killed 2 officers and a 911 phone operator in Fayette, Alabama. While he was being finger printed and the cuffs removed, a stugle insued and the arrested child got one of the officers guns then killed three humans. All the "feelings" and righious indignation won't bring those three lives back or stop the sorrow of the families of the three people killed. So I would like to see the mental gymnastics of how not handcuffing an arrested person can possibly be squared with the if it saves one life logic so prevalant with the "feeling" crowd.
Ah yes, and one out of 5000 "snapping" surely is justification enough to treat the other 4999 as adult criminals. The fact that at the same time they're violating the same human rights agreements from which they expect that the entire world abides by them and which usually sets the "evil" countries apart from the "good" countries hardly matters, er? [img]graemlins/1disgust.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]You're right, Grojlach. The "other 4,999" may not represent a significant threat. So I tell you what..we'll just have the Immigration Dept. send a photo of all 5,000 to you and you can circle the ONE person in the crowd they need to be wary of.

The fact is that physical restraint is Standard Operating Procedure for police in any situation regarding the transport of a person. These children are not shackled 24/7. They are only put in restraints when being transported to court appearances or other meetings. That might seem cruel to some, but I'm sure it seems like common sense to the officers doing the transportation.

I worked at a convenience store several years ago. One night, a man came in very distraught. He was homeless and hitchhiking through the area. According to his story, a local family had met him and offered to let him stay at their house for the night before moving on. Suddenly, after eating dinner, the man of the house physically attacked the guy without provocation and the man barely escaped without receiving serious physical harm. He was very upset and needed a place to stay for the night. Since our small town has no official homeless shelter, the only other option was to spend the night in jail. The man said that was fine with him, he just wanted someplace safe to stay. I called the police and a deputy was dispatched to the store. Upon arriving, he listened to the man's story and offered to give him a ride to the jail where he could spend the night. HOWEVER, even though the man was very cooperative and offered no resistance, the deputy told him he would have to place him in handcuffs until they reached the jail. It is nothing more than a safety precaution meant to protect the police..because as the situation described by John Harris illustrates, they never know when a person is going to "snap" on them.

Also, the article doesn't list the ages of the children...the reason is that most the word "children" conjures up images of innocent-eyed 5-year-olds. The fact is, many of these "children" are actually teenagers - who could reasonably be assumed to represent a far more potential threat than the toddler most people picture when reading this story.
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Old 06-24-2003, 12:37 PM   #16
Cerek the Barbaric
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Quote:
Originally posted by Grojlach:
Funnily enough, I saw a report about this on CNN just a minute ago; they hadn't updated their website yet with that newer report (which contained a response from the U.S. immigration authorities as well, IIRC), but I'm sure it'll follow soon enough.

-
I would like to see the response from the Immigration Authorities myself. It would be nice to hear the other side of the story concerning these accusations.

As it is, I see several points of contention within the article itself - mark it up to my newfound cynism of all things media-related.

-

U.S. Mistreats Immigrant Children, Amnesty Says


Wed June 18, 2003 05:02 PM ET
By Jane Sutton

MIAMI (Reuters) - The United States locks up more than 5,000 children a year who enter the country illegally and alone, often holding them in harsh conditions without access to lawyers, rights group Amnesty International said on Wednesday.

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First point of contention. The headline screams "U.S. MISTREATS IMMIGRANT CHILDREN" and the opening paragraph states that 5,000 children are locked up each year by U.S. Immigration and that they are "often held in harsh conditions". So this implies that ALL 5,000 are recieving harsh and brutal treatment as soon as they step on U.S. soil. Yes, they are locked-up because they entered the country illegally...and when you do something illegal in America, you are usually put in jail.
-

Some are jailed with criminals, strip-searched, shackled and physically abused, in violation of international accords and of a 1985 U.S. court ruling that children in immigration custody must be treated with "dignity, respect and special concern for their vulnerability as minors," Amnesty said in a report released in Miami and other cities.

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"Some are jailed with criminals"...I'm sure that's true...and I'm also sure that some of these "children" are actually teenagers and they are being put in detention cells with other teenagers (as mentioned later in the article). This could be a result of space limitations within the jail also. Of course, the implication is that it is the scared little 5-6 yr old that is placed in this dank cell with dangerouse criminals..yet there are no statistics given to actually substantiate this idea.
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Some have been sent by their parents to join relatives in the United States. Others are fleeing abuse, war and recruitment in rebel armies, Amnesty said.
"They come to this country seeking freedom only to find themselves instead facing abuse, detention and neglect on the part of U.S. authorities," said Ajamu Baraka, Amnesty's regional director for the southeastern United States.
"You are forced to appear before a judge to argue your case by yourself, often in a language you don't understand."

-
I agree that interpreters and lawyers should be provided for these kids..and the article later suggests that steps are being taken to do this. But as for them having to "appear before a judge and argue your case in a language you don't understand", what else should you expect when you enter illegally into a country where your native language isn't spoken? The court system isn't going out of it's way to be cruel to these immigrants..they are simply treating them the same as every other immigrant. I agree it may seem harsh..but it also may be the best the court system can do with limited resources.
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U.S. immigration authorities had no immediate comment.
Amnesty said children from all over the world, from toddlers to teens, are held for months and sometimes years while U.S. authorities decide whether to grant them political asylum or humanitarian resettlement.

-
I'm sure this part is true..but what are U.S. Authorities supposed to do..provide them with free housing while their cases are being decided. Many of our own citizens don't have adequate housing either. I'm sure they feel that they should have the first choice of any free housing the gov't might offer.
-

EXTENSIVE INTERVIEWS
Amnesty's report was based on interviews with detained children and lawyers who work with them, and on surveys sent to 115 U.S. facilities that hold illegal immigrant children.
Among the 33 facilities that answered the survey fully, 48 percent said they held unaccompanied minors in the same cells as juvenile offenders and more than half said they used solitary confinement as punishment.
Eighty-three percent said they put the children in handcuffs, shackles, belly chains or other restraints when taking them to court or other places outside the facility.
Fewer than half of such children have contact with lawyers and there is no system to provide them with adult guardians to speak for them in court, Amnesty said.
The report cited examples of treatment it called cruel and degrading: Children at a Pennsylvania facility were kicked and thrown to the floor for infractions such as saying "Can I use the bathroom?" instead of "May I use the bathroom?" it said.
Staff at a Texas facility took away blankets and mattresses and turned up the air conditioning to make it "unbearably cold" when children misbehaved, the report said.

-
I agree these acts are heinous and should be fully investigated, but the article is making the same type of "broad extrapolation" for which you criticized John D. Harris. They are taking isolated incidents and using them as "proof" that ALL 5,000 immigrant children are being summarily abused and mistreated. As evidenced by the following account of Jimmy Noel, this simply is not the case...yet the article and Amnesty International want us to believe that this is type of treatment is the rule rather than the exception.
-

The report cited one cause for optimism. Responsibility for unaccompanied immigrant children was transferred on March 1 to the newly created U.S. Office of Refugee Resettlement, and legislation pending in Congress would require that they be given legal guardians and access to translators.
Previously, they were in custody of the same immigration agency that was charged with prosecuting them for deportation.

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That does sound promising. I agree the kids should have access to lawyers and interpreters and steps are obviously being taken to provide these services by the gov't. Which means they are addressing the concerns raised by Amnesty International, but the article relegates that fact to this one short paragraph and quickly moves on to the next case of mistreatment.
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Jimmy Noel was one of the lucky ones. He was 16 when he arrived illegally in October with a boat full of Haitian emigres, hoping to join his family in Miami. He was held under armed guard in a hotel room for two weeks.
"My family didn't know where I was ... I didn't get a chance to change clothes. At the hotel there was no staff who spoke Creole who could help me," he told Reuters on Wednesday through a translator.
He was held for two months more at a Boys Town facility in Miami, then released to his sister's custody on Christmas Eve after a baffling series of hearings.
"I was really scared because I did not know what was going to happen to me," he said.

-
This is my favorite part of the article and it supports a lot of the comments I've made thus far. Let's look at several key factors.

First, Jimmy Noel was 16 - not 6. That means he is a teenager, not a child. Secondly, he was held in a hotel room..not a "jail cell with other criminals" Third, he did not have access to new clothes or an interpreter for the two weeks he was held at the hotel. I agree that he should have access to both of these amenities. From the hotel, he was taken to a Boys Town facility for two months before being released into his siter's custody. So he was never kept in a jail cell and the authorities were able to locate and verify a blood relative in 2.5 months for him to move in with.

But since Jimmy Noel's experience contradicts the whole "tone" of the article, it is prefaced with the announcement that he was "one of the lucky ones"..ie, he was an exception to the rule of arbitrary cruelty to which the other 4,999 were subjected to....does that type of argument sound familiar at all?

-

Source: Reuters


Related article:
Official Amnesty USA press release [/QB]
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Old 06-24-2003, 12:44 PM   #17
Cloudbringer
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Let's keep the personal jabs out of this one, people. This is an emotional topic for some, so try to keep it in 'debate' mode not 'flame' mode.

Thanks,

Your Friendly Neighborhood Mod
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Old 06-24-2003, 02:04 PM   #18
Morgeruat
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I agree very much with Cerek, once again he is much more eloquent than I am, I would like to touch on

It's too bad your immigrate forbearers where not treated this why. Then we would not have to read your hateful ideas. I agree with Chewbacca you two should be ashamed of yourselves.

The problem with this statement is that you are assuming his ancestors were ilegal immigrants, the overwhelming majority of imigrants to this country are legal, which it seems LoA and Crimson Blade have no problem with (or perhaps they want the borders closed), the problem with the article is it tries to force upon you the idea that illegal immigrants have a right to be here, simply put they don't.
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Old 06-24-2003, 04:06 PM   #19
Ramon de Ramon y Ramon
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Quote:
Originally posted by Donut:
quote:
Originally posted by wellard:
Just a note to say LOA and crimsonblade's post were so over the top to take seriously, Sarcasam is funny [img]tongue.gif[/img]

:
I'm afraid that one of them was serious. The other, although he has strong views on illegal immigration, was being his usual over the top self. [/QUOTE]That is exactly how I had "scored" it myself.
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Old 06-24-2003, 04:21 PM   #20
Rokenn
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Quote:
Originally posted by Morgeruat:
I agree very much with Cerek, once again he is much more eloquent than I am, I would like to touch on

It's too bad your immigrate forbearers where not treated this why. Then we would not have to read your hateful ideas. I agree with Chewbacca you two should be ashamed of yourselves.

The problem with this statement is that you are assuming his ancestors were ilegal immigrants, the overwhelming majority of imigrants to this country are legal, which it seems LoA and Crimson Blade have no problem with (or perhaps they want the borders closed), the problem with the article is it tries to force upon you the idea that illegal immigrants have a right to be here, simply put they don't.
In line with current US criminal procedure I will assume they are illeagal till they can prove otherwise [img]tongue.gif[/img]
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