The unchecked wave of immigration into the United States

[Animal]

It's even worse in Canada.

It seems pretty much anybody can wade ashore here and be given citizenship and their first social security cheque with no questions asked. Now, I am not a racist person, but it frustrates me to see different cultures enter Canada and attempt to convert it to their homeland. I was not born in Canada, but I live here and accept Canadian culture and live as a Canadian.
For example:
About 10 years ago in Vancouver, a friend of mine went home after working the late shift driving tow truck for the same company I worked for. It was about 8:00AM. When he got home to his first floor apartment he found the roof caved in, with most of the belongings of the apartment above in his along with an enourmous amount of dirt.
It turns out, that there was 15 East Indians living in the one bedroom apartment above him, along with 2 goats and 5 chickens. They had two tonnes of topsoil in their appartment and were growing their own vegetables.
The residents were working in a furniture factory for $2.50/hour (minimum wage at that time was $5.00) By living in these conditions they could easily afford to work for such a little amount of money, which was quite illegal, and send most of the money they made back to India, so their families could afford to come to Canada.
My sister, living in England, has applied to move to Canada on six different occasions but has been refused because her husbands family "may" have ties to the IRA.
I have no problem with anybody moving here to Canada, as long as they can provide evidence that they will not be a burden upon the social security system, but give me a break, this is crap.
Jobs are being taken away from honest hard working people, because others will illegaly work for less than minimum wage. The gang warfare between people of East Indian descent and Viatnamese is out of control, as each culture attempts to convert their neighborhood to the "old country."
I feel for you Lord of Alcohol as I understand your situation and your beef.
This is not directed at any one person, and if I insult anyone it is purely unintentional and I appologize, for that is not my intent. I am not racist and I have no problem with any particular person from any particular background or culture, but if I were to move to another country I would abide and conform to their ways and laws, not attempt to turn that country into a photocopy of the one I moved from.
Once again, please do not interpret this as a racist attack, as it is not intended as such,

[Charean]

I was told by a Canadian that if you can fog a mirror you can be a citizen.

Hmmmm.

Guess I will have to rethink emigrating!

I find it very sad that people are so afraid or whatever in their own home and country that they feel they have to leave. I wouldn't think most would leave if things were better at home.

[Animal]

Originally posted by Charean: I was told by a Canadian that if you can fog a mirror you can be a citizen. Hmmmm. Guess I will have to rethink emigrating! I find it very sad that people are so afraid or whatever in their own home and country that they feel they have to leave. I wouldn't think most would leave if things were better at home.

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. You hit the nail on the head about fogging a mirror though!

[John D Harris]

No politician will ever say or do any thing about "ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION" because if they do they'll be labled "Racist", most of the press and the whinners forget it's ILLEGAL.

[The Hierophant]

Immigration is what America is built on. Hell, immigration is what New Zealand is built on, only the nation of New Zealand is alot younger.
The thing is, communities change and morph as global, environmental and social forces inevitabley change. The USA is what it is today due to the massive waves of immigrants of the 1870s, 80s and 90s. Unrelenting belief in the idealized citizen-state nation can be restricting at best. You have to flow with the tide of global human forces and develope methods of understanding and accepting your new neighbours, even if it means you won't be as 'prosperous' as you were before they arrived. You're going to have to share and share alike. Change is inevitable. As Hunter has said, you just have to work hard. Flow with the flood, don't try to push it back, you can't win.
In NZ we are facing huge waves of Asian immigrants. A great deal of them don't speak English, and many don't want to. Their culture is alot different to mine but so be it, I'm just gonna have to get used to it and make an effort to get along with and understand them. Maybe we can make a new culture based on the emalgamation of our own heritages. Hell, isn't that what America prides itself on doing?

We're all just homo sapiens sapiens in the end *shrug*.

[Iron_Ranger]

People get immagration and illegal immigrates mixed up far too often. Correct me if I a wrong, but the waves of immagration before (In the late 1800s) wear legal for the most part. My Fathers a second generation American, he grand parents wear from Germany, and they came over aboustley legally. And they worked hard, honesty jobs, and tried to learn the American language.

Thats what really gets me, I am in central texas there are tons of illegal mexicans (some live right across the road) here. And they dont even put out a vauge effort to learn English.

What scares me though ,is alot of the younger ones dont even try and work hard. They just become drug dealers (or addicts, your pick) or work at one of the conveinet stores around here. At least thats how it is in central texas.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Iron_Ranger: Thats what really gets me, I am in central texas there are tons of illegal mexicans (some live right across the road) here. And they dont even put out a vauge effort to learn English. What scares me though ,is alot of the younger ones dont even try and work hard. They just become drug dealers (or addicts, your pick) or work at one of the conveinet stores around here. At least thats how it is in central texas.

Indeed, a lack of understanding is detrimental for both 'sides'. Perhaps you should try and learn a little Spanish/Portuguese (that's a suggestion, not an attack).
There are alot of lazy, drug dealing American citizens too I'm sure. This is an individual problematic issue that doesn't necessarily involve human migration to American land.
The trick here is to try and not bi-polarize things and create victim situations. Don't think of them as illegal immigrants, don't think of yourself as the legal citizen. They are people living in that land alongside you. Make an effort to get to know them and maybe they might do the same for you. I'm not trying to denegrate anything you've said, I think your viewpoint is certainly understandable. Just that maybe a decrease in nationalism and an increase in universal humanism could do some good in this situation (although it could be difficult to get to know them if they wave a gun in your face and tell you to "go f**k yourself puto". A similar thing has happened to me here in NZ but with maori youngsters, but that's a whole different story).

[Iron_Ranger]

Originally posted by The Hierophant:

Indeed, a lack of understanding is detrimental for both 'sides'. Perhaps you should try and learn a little Spanish/Portuguese (that's a suggestion, not an attack).

But why? I mean I live in America, after all, we speak english here. Not Spannish, not portugese, not polish, not german, not french. English. I see where your coming from, but there is no need for me to learn spannish, their is a need for them to learn english, if they plan on comming over here.

There are alot of lazy, drug dealing American citizens too I'm sure. This is an individual problematic issue that doesn't necessarily involve human migration to American land.

True. Drugs and migration dont have anything to do with each other (or do they?). I am just saying, alot of the younger ones over here just become druggies, and think of there offspring, and their offspring and soon we will have a great big ol' mess.

The trick here is to try and not bi-polarize things and create victim situations. Don't think of them as illegal immigrants, don't think of yourself as the legal citizen. They are people living in that land alongside you. Make an effort to get to know them and maybe they might do the same for you. I'm not trying to denegrate anything you've said, I think your viewpoint is certainly understandable. Just that maybe a decrease in nationalism and an increase in universal humanism could do some good in this situation (although it could be difficult to get to know them if they wave a gun in your face and tell you to "go f**k yourself puto". A similar thing has happened to me here in NZ but with maori youngsters, but that's a whole different story).[/QB][/QUOTE]

I have got to know them, I am friends with them, we hang out. We have fun, but that doesnt make them any more legal. Nationalism, IMO, is one of the most misunderstood words in the world. Along with Disipline. I dont really think Natioalism has anything to do with it. All this nationalism and humanism is all irrelivant. Yes, we all humans. But we are still diffrent in many, many ways. Beside, there are LAWS people have to go by. Any socitey will collapse without laws, or ignoring them will have the same effect, and that is exacly what they are doing.

[ 11-02-2002, 03:02 AM: Message edited by: Iron_Ranger ]

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Iron_Ranger: I have got to know them, I am friends with them, we hang out. We have fun, but that doesnt make them any more legal. Nationalism, IMO, is one of the most misunderstood words in the world. Along with Disipline. I dont really think Natioalism has anything to do with it. All this nationalism and humanism is all irrelivant. Yes, we all humans. But we are still diffrent in many, many ways. Beside, there are LAWS people have to go by. Any socitey will collapse without laws, or ignoring them will have the same effect, and that is exacly what they are doing.

That's true, but when a law stands in the way of harmony among men what good is it? Now, from your post I am admittedly assuming that you would have your own friends deported due to their 'illegal' status (although i am sure you will rectify me in that this is not how you truly feel). I just fail to see the value of laws that work in lengthening the divide between the haves and have nots. When a society faces problems such as these to a sufficient magnitude, it is time to change the roots of society itself, not create new legislation in an attempt to ban people from living in an area.

[ 11-02-2002, 03:17 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by johnny: It's not a very violent place, but when you make statements like: Closing the borders for all immigrants that's what you can expect. Well, either that or eggs, tomatoes, pie, stuff like that. And if you say it out loud on TV, someone might even take a shot at you.

Im still trying to figure out what was so offensive as to prompt people to commit assault? Can you help me out here? I am still missing why closing borders is such a bad thing? Especially in lite of big a problem the illegal alien issue is. How does Holland handle illegal aliens? [/QUOTE]MagiK, don't pay too much attention to Johnny. He is, of course, exaggerating.
The problem is that after some lunatic killed the right-winged politician Pim Fortuyn, a very strange atmosphere emerged in our country, one in which voicing your (left) opinion was not done. In the weeks after the murder, the leftwingers were more or less gagged, directly given the blame for the drama because they were seen as Fortuyn's political "nemesises". As in, they disagreed on practically everything he stood for, especially the immigration policies Fortuyn had in mind; Fortuyn also made some offensive remarks about the islam, called it a retarded religion.
Unfortunately, a part of the Dutch people saw him as some sort of Messiah, "because he said what we we were all thinking" (yeah right ); and when he was killed, people voted en masse for him a week later (he wasn't taken off the list), giving his party a huge amount of seats for the Parliament, enough even to participate in a Government coalition. Which resulted in a crisis of Government in our country within a hundred days (a new record! ), as this new inexperienced party couldn't stop fighting with eachother... In that period, there was at least one schandal a day, whether it was about false credentials, supposed bribes, harassment or just childish fighting.
The thing is, ever since Fortuyn first made a political appearance there's a much clearer difference between left and right again in our country; a bit of an "us against them" mentality. And both sides can't help but annoy the heck out of one another, pushing themselves in the victim role and pointing the blaming finger for not being able to voice their opinions freely in the other side's direction, like Johnny just demonstrated. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
In truth, airing anti-foreigner sentiments is already so accepted that it's almost frightening, despite what Johnny said. Like I said in an earlier post in the International Hatred thread:

There are a lot of anti-foreigner sentiments in our country just the same. Not necessarily racism, but at least an unhealthy and narrow-minded bias against other people's culture, ways, opinions *and* presence. Sure, there are some criminals among those foreigners (or actually most of them already have the Dutch Nationality, but apparently some people can't help but call people "foreign" for simply having a different skin colour ); just like there are criminals in every society, race and religion. It's just that generalizing has become so "normal" and "accepted" in our country, up to a point that it makes me feel sick in the stomach when I turn on the News. Every loud-mouth can just yell whatever he/she wants, never mind that it's highly generalizing, unfair, biased and against any law or International resolution whatsoever. For example... We have politicians who are against expansion of the European Union, which is fair enough, as long as the argumentation is a bit sound. But no, this politician (Winnie de Jong) is against this expansion because she doesn't want all those gypsies from Eastern-Europe to travel freely to our country because "they're all criminal" (!). And that's a politician, apparently representing a part of our Society...

Furthermore, our Minister of Immigration actually talked about sending "foreign" criminal people with the Dutch Nationality out of our country; people with the Dutch Nationality! In other words, banning a member of our Society from that same Society, sending them off to a country they've probably never even been before (second generation Morrocans, for example); something which is against the Dutch law and against any possible International law. And there are many more examples as well. Oh, and neither of these people ever had eggs or rocks thrown at them. In fact, the fact that they never had eggs thrown at them is probably the best indication how normal it is nowadays to voice anti-foreigner sentiments.
Though the atmosphere in our country *is* harsher after the murder; right after Fortuyn was killed, a large group of lunatics was rioting in front of the Government building, yelling "murderer!" in the direction of the politicians within, making many others at home fear for a possible lynch mob. About every important left party member has received at least one death threat, loaded guns by mail, you name it... Some of them still can't leave the house without bodyguards. One of them even had to flee our country because of those threats (Melkert, the biggest political opponent of Fortuyn). Heck, even the later leader of Fortuyn's party received death threats from his own voters, "because he wasn't able to push Fortuyn's ideas into the Government plans well enough".
The political situation in our country is one big mess at the moment, let's just keep it at that.
Anyways, if Johnny had made the above statement back in April, I would have agreed with him; people voicing anti-foreigner sentiments back then *were* met with eggs and pies being thrown at them; but ever since Fortuyn had been killed, none of that actually happened any more. The situation in our country has changed so drastically in that period that Johnny's words can't be applied whatsoever anymore. In fact, the very opposite of what he said is true, as now people just yell whatever the heck they want without ever getting the egg against their head that they actually deserve; saying the borders have to be closed partly is one thing, but currently there are far worse things being said that are closer to racism and generalizing than Fortuyn's opinions ever were. It almost makes me feel ashamed that there's so much hatred in a large number of fellow Dutchies.

[ 11-02-2002, 07:20 AM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]