Wicca and Other forms of Neo Paganism

[tracey]

what a lot of interesting views. i'm with the don't actually give a monkey's faction. however, i like pagans in general - they tend not to be people who stick like glue to any particular dogma therefore allowing movement and thought to mesh into whatever problems face them and the planet. most of the neo/pagans i know (and there are loads) don't worship anything in particular, they celebrate and respect all things living and are aware of the aspects of human behaviour that are damaging to the planet.

they tend to believe in 'energies' rather than one energy. and in individuals taking responsibility for their actions rather than assuming some external 'god' is going to come and sort the world out. i think that's the main difference. the attitude of 'it's my planet, environment, family, community and i must treat it/them with respect and mutuality of interest' rather than 'this is the right way because my holy book says so and any consequences are not my problem'. i know that this is not true of all christaians, muslims, jews etc, but i think pagan type people believe in living in as much harmony with the planet and all within it first and foremost. rather than doing what they do and tacking on a god concept as a cure for all ills afterwards.

i think this is most relevent perhaps on the attitudes towards the recent world trade centre problem where the pagans (and associated belief systems) tended towards trying to see the other view and dealing with the concept of western self interest as having to change and the christian (and other fundamentalists) were more into punishment and putting up military barriers and making a stand/strike.

as i don't fall into either camp as such (i respect the planet and its people but not in any ritualised form) i would much prefer the pagan fraternity to be holding power as i feel they would achieve greater success in altering our world view and changing it from within.

my intention is not to offend anyone but sometimes its mightliy tricky to discuss groups of people with similar views without giving them a label of some sort. i fully appreciate that you/i am individuals with particular similarities and differences on broad beliefs. so, please, don't anyone get snotty on that account.

[Silver Cheetah]

Hello!!

Have been away (in a manner of speaking) so never got back to this thread. LadyZekke and Cloudbringer, I really liked both your posts, and thanks for sharing the poem, LadyZekke!

All I want to say, really, is that no matter how we see the divinity of the universe(s) we live in, I personally don't think it really matters. The reality of the divine, whatever it really is, (because let's face it the experience of each one of us is personal to ourselves, and different from that of anyone else - probably due to the fact that whilst on this earth, we are separate, if connected, individuals coming out of different life experiences) is something that we can't know in its entirety, we can only ever catch a glimpse (again, which is personal to ourselves.)

God is just a word for something. Everyone perceives that something differently. I personally see it, as I have said, as the living evolving sum of everything that ever is, ever was and ever has been, an entity which is also myriads of entities, separate in flesh, but connected in essence, in spirit. I do not believe that 'god' is separate from 'his' creation. I believe that 'god' is the creation, and the creation is 'god', whatever we might mean by that word, which has been used in many ways, for many different concepts of the divine.

But what I'm trying to say here is disagreements on the 'form', if you can meaningfully call it that - of 'god' are really academic. We're squabbling about nothing, really. It is, period. My ideas about it, or yours, the ideas of someone who lived a thousand years ago, a million.... what does it matter? As long as we are happy with those ideas, and the presence we feel, I don't think the words we use to describe them are that important.

Unfortunately, humankind down the ages has felt that the words and forms of belief ARE important, and have killed in the belief that their words and forms were right (i.e. more descriptive of the 'truth' than someone else's). Just lots of different hats for the same thing. The Christian hat, the hat of Islam, the hat of Paganism, the hat of Hinduism, etc etc etc. Nonsense really, is it not? All beliefs in the divine are beautiful and useful, imho, until they are used as a reason or excuse to start harming others. Then they start looking a little less attractive.

Anyway, s'whatithink...

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Ascended Mistress of Illumination OR Paws R Us

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Mouse: Nighty night SC - personally, I'm amazed I can still think straight I blame Rosemount Estate 2000 Grenache Shiraz for the whole farrago. And here's a thought, if you accept that both Greenpeace and ExxonMobil have agendas which their public relations are designed to promote, who can you trust to be the "honest broker"?

The one who isn't making great big fat profits? As I already said, Exxon made US$17.9 billion in PROFIT last year. Greenpeace is a non profit making, non governmental organisation.

Greenpeace started off as a few men in a boat, bearing witness to US nuclear testing in 1971. That's its purpose, to bear witness, non violently. Another of its stated aims is 'to ensure the continued ability of the earth to nurture life in all its diversity'. In a nutshell, that is Greenpeace's agenda. Exxon Mobile's agenda is to make as much money as possible. If their agenda was simply to supply the world with energy, there are a myriad ways in which they could do it and do us all a favour at the same time by reducing Western dependence on OPEC, reducing our dependence on a fossil fuel which is finite, and will run out, and reducing wear and tear on our environment. They could, but the profit margins would probably have gone down a tad. And that would never do, would it?

When you talk about conspiracy theories - I'm sorry Mouse, all around me I see hard evidence of what rich individuals and companies will do to get rich and stay rich. A majority (not all!) of companies are pretty short term in their thinking, and build, make and manufacture without due consideration for the environment, and in many cases, for human or animal rights. This is not true of all companies, but it is of many. I am talking about both Western and developing world based companies here...

(Of course, many Western companies produce and manufacture in the developing world. More and more and more and more of them in fact. Well, hey now. Why would that be then? Would it be because labour and land is dirt cheap? Why yes, maybe it would. And might it be because health and safety regulations are often non existent, or at least far less stringent than in the West? Well, could be.... And could it be because the environment is far less protected than it is here... (although that isn't saying a fat lot..) Well, that might be the case also... The freedom to pollute AND exploit whilst paying next to nothing for the privilege. (No, that's not everybody, but there's a lot of it about. Like I said, I work on a business 2 business web site, and I see news clips every day that illustrate the points I'm making. There are also numerous books on this subject, not to mention web sites.)

This reality exists. Turning your back on it won't make it go away. (Although Exxon don't do too badly. Their public relations machine is awesome. They also pay a lot of money to finance climate change sceptics in the US (Lee Raymonds, for example), and undermine the good science which has been published on the subject, and which is now accepted by the vast majority of scientists and governments around the world.)

I personally think they are bonkers. Why don't they get busy developing alternative sustainable energy sources NOW before the fossil fuels start running out? What the world is going to be when that happens doesn't bear thinking about. A bit of long term thinking works wonders - except when those involved just don't have the brain capacity. Short termism - who does it benefit? No-one, in the long run.

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Ascended Mistress of Illumination OR Paws R Us



[This message has been edited by Silver Cheetah (edited 10-02-2001).]

[250]

Originally posted by Yorick: I decry magik/magic/witchcraft though as a perversion of the earths laws, of an individuals right to non-interferance from external forces, and the removal of hope when the future is described to them.

think about how much cool things you can do with them!!

fly on bamboo... be invisible... summon a demon... WOW! I want to learn, I want to learn!!

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by 250: think about how much cool things you can do with them!! fly on bamboo... be invisible... summon a demon... WOW! I want to learn, I want to learn!!

Hey 250, I like your style, guy! I'm looking up, waiting for you to come sweeping across the skies...



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Ascended Mistress of Illumination OR Paws R Us

[Blade]

makik is not a pervertion of earths laws so much as using your internal power to link with the one power (or the god and godess) and use the natural power to accomplish something. Its a tool like a car or computer. I have recently been reading a lot about the wiccan religion (as previously stated although i don't know if in this thread). Magik from what i read is actually farly simple in consept you chanel your own energy through consintration to use the one power (that created the universe) to do something. I don't know what you can do with it though. Just my 2cents and why aren't many wiccans replying to this i wonder i know there is more than 1 or 2 here?

edit responding to the quote of Yorrik

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All blades cut, be they made from metal or wood, but the sharpest and deadliest blade is the one of knowledge.

An Archmage of the HADB

[This message has been edited by Blade (edited 10-02-2001).]

Originally posted by Blade: makik is not a pervertion of earths laws so much as using your internal power to link with the one power (or the god and godess) and use the natural power to accomplish something. Its a tool like a car or computer. I have recently been reading a lot about the wiccan religion (as previously stated although i don't know if in this thread). Magik from what i read is actually farly simple in consept you chanel your own energy through consintration to use the one power (that created the universe) to do something. I don't know what you can do with it though. Just my 2cents and why aren't many wiccans replying to this i wonder i know there is more than 1 or 2 here? edit responding to the quote of Yorrik

Misconceptions like the one you replied too about magic are not worth my effort to counter. One can read and seek expirience concerning magic. One can make magic in their life. Its a waste of time to me to try to describe the magic of magic to someone who thinks its a "pervertsion" in general and exclusive of the beliefs and ideals of its practitioners.

Some things are self-evident and only personal expirience will ever make those things full.

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by G'kar: Misconceptions like the one you replied too about magic are not worth my effort to counter. One can read and seek expirience concerning magic. One can make magic in their life. Its a waste of time to me to try to describe the magic of magic to someone who thinks its a "pervertsion" in general and exclusive of the beliefs and ideals of its practitioners. Some things are self-evident and only personal expirience will ever make those things full.

Love you, dude!!



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Ascended Mistress of Illumination OR Paws R Us

[DragonMage]

Misconceptions, indeed, G'kar. I come from a God-believing family, but non-traditional. I became a Christian at 18 and still believe that God is who He says He is and that Jesus died for us. I DON'T understand why some Christians still believe that all 'magic users' would be bad.

To try to use the power for evil IS bad and you reap what you sow as a result only three times worse than the harm you intended. I have 'drawn' on the powers that be to aid in healing or to influence GOOD things to happen (someone I know getting a job, etc.). My feeling as a blend of the two faiths is that BOTH can be perverted to dark purposes and therefore each person must guard themselves against the temptation to do harm. I feel that other entities other than God do exist. It says in the Bible: 'thou shalt have no other gods before me'. I take that to mean that other powers exist, but that God is above them all. Christians call them Angels, Native Americans and others call them "Spirit of the Bear", "Spirit of the Wolf", etc. Yet other religions call these helpers by other names.

I believe the Wiccan Goddess is yet another helper. They are His helpers and we can ask them to help us for specific needs. Yes, you can ask God directly, too. But I think God knows that, no matter how He tells us we can come to Him directly, some people feel that He is too far above us to 'bother' Him, so they feel more comfortable with a go-between. What's different between a Catholic praying for intercession from Mary and a Wiccan praying for help from the Goddess or the Native Americans praying to the Spirit of the Hunt?

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The day we stop learning is the day we start dying!(c)

Co-Owner/Operator of the Evil Petting Zoo and devout member of the HADB clan.
Commander of the Dragon Fleet, IW Peacekeeping Force
Sublime Sister of the Illuminati - may the Light shine forever!
Mage extraordinair, Pin-Up Girl for the OLD-COOTS
Magey-Wagey: performer in the Nekked Dancing Trio of the ORT.
Occasional minion to Gwhanos the Fluffy

Hopeless Romantic *sigh*

[This message has been edited by DragonMage (edited 10-02-2001).]

Originally posted by DragonMage: Misconceptions, indeed, G'kar. I come from a God-believing family, but non-traditional. I became a Christian at 18 and still believe that God is who He says He is and that Jesus died for us. I DON'T understand why some Christians still believe that all 'magic users' would be bad. To try to use the power for evil IS bad and you reap what you sow as a result only three times worse than the harm you intended. I have 'drawn' on the powers that be to aid in healing or to influence GOOD things to happen (someone I know getting a job, etc.). My feeling as a blend of the two faiths is that BOTH can be perverted to dark purposes and therefore each person must guard themselves against the temptation to do harm. I feel that other entities other than God do exist. It says in the Bible: 'thou shalt have no other gods before me'. I take that to mean that other powers exist, but that God is above them all. Christians call them Angels, Native Americans and others call them "Spirit of the Bear", "Spirit of the Wolf", etc. Yet other religions call these helpers by other names. I believe the Wiccan Goddess is yet another helper. They are His helpers and we can ask them to help us for specific needs. Yes, you can ask God directly, too. But I think God knows that, no matter how He tells us we can come to Him directly, some people feel that He is too far above us to 'bother' Him, so they feel more comfortable with a go-between. What's different between a Catholic praying for intercession from Mary and a Wiccan praying for help from the Goddess or the Native Americans praying to the Spirit of the Hunt?

DragonMage, I respect your Beliefs and your candor about them.

I see little difference between religions at a funtional/archtypal level in some aspects. I look for what I can appreciate as well as correlate in any religion I encounter. I see the unifying, all-inclusive God as being the wholeness of the god and godess. You can't refer to one without implying the other. The "Yin-Yang" is an excellent symbol of this concept. I could write more about my beliefs and go into details about what I like and see similar about different religions, but I am tired, and yearning for sleep. Thanks for sharing.