Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?

[Chewbacca]

I'll join in the other discusion if it's about sharing open ideas.

It's easy to surmise how no religion can be trusted as "true". Nobody can know for sure if it all wasn't just made up, distorted, taken out of context, or whatever.

What does intrigue me is how many supposedly seperate religions all find a common threads in valueing Compassion, Justice, and Community. Science cannot prove compassion and only helps dole out justice. Obviously as a community we haven't made it on science alone.

[Yorick]

Originally Posted by Dragonshadow It leads into the whole "what made God?" thing.

Ah but that's a question that presupposes God was made, and had a beginning, neither of which are believed theists, so the question cannot be asked of them.

You need to start with the question of "who or what is God" and take it from there.

My belief is, God just "is". An eternal awareness outside time and space who, to quote a Jewish writer, "blinked and saw eternity".

I'm with you Lav. I think if we don't understand something we should use science to try and understand it, rather than claim an all powerful diety did it.

There are those of us though, who love science, who find all the scientific data we receive in our life points to an all-powerful deity. Faith and science are not incompatible. To the contrary, science enhances my faith, while my faith gives me a reason to pursue scientific understanding.

That said, certain things cannot be explained by science alone. "What is my purpose?", "What does love feel like?", "Who am I?". These things are not for the realm of science. Science explains how something works, it doesn't always explain why it should work!

Sciences like chemistry and physics may deal with the how, but theology deals with the who.

Mmf, I'm not adding much to this discussion. We're all out of decaff coffee at home.

Well I enjoyed your contribution. Decaf away bro.

[Yorick]

Originally Posted by Beaumanoir But don't creationists believe that god created man as he is? Adam and Eve sort of thing?

Not all. Many in the Roman Catholic Church teach that God used evolution to create us.
If I recall correctly it may even be the official position of the church.

In Christianity you have literalists, who believe the Genesis story happened exactly as written, and others who take it as symbolic or sequencial: Let there be light = big bang, planet forming, plants, animals then humans etc etc.

I take a literalist perspective, as I see no reason why not. If tomorrow evolution theory knocked me over the head with irrefutable proof, I could quite easily switch to a symbolist theology, as it doesn't really make much of a difference. I believe God created us either way, but science helps explain how. I just accept the theories of creation scientists over evolution scientists (yes, creation science is an extra-biblical set of theories based on science, not just Genesis...)

I have too much doubt in evolution, so by default choose literal creationism, but plenty of Christians and Jews are evolutionist-creationists.

[Cerek]

Originally Posted by Beaumanoir I am definitely a believer of evolution over creation though. Mainly just because it's got more concrete evidence there and needs less faith. But, as an honest question, I'm sure there are things which believers would call evidence. I'm pretty sure I've heard of creationists showing 'proof'. Can't remember what it was though - Anyone?

First off - I am very pleased to see a discussion of religion being allowed and remaining civil. I especially want to thank Luvian for allowing this thread to stay open because of the civility, but keeping an eye on things just in case.

This has been an interesting read and several posts have been made throughout that I would like to answer or counter.

I will agree that organized religion has cause a lot of problems in the past and continues to do so today (thought not to the degree it did before). However, I certainly challenge the notion that "religion causes more death per year than anything else, including disease".

Lav, do you honostly believe more people are killed in America because of religion than auto accidents? Do you really think religion causes more death in Ethiopia than famine or disease? Exactly how is religion responsible for so many global deaths?

The other main point I wanted to counter was evolution. I've looked into this a bit to see what evidence is available and how solid it is. I found several key questions remained unanswered.

The most obvious question is, if humans evolved from apes (or a similar animal), then why do we still have apes? This is not a straw-man argument. The founding core for any type of evolution within a species is that the evolved form is better equipped to survive and the non-evolved forms eventually die out due to their lack of adaptability. If this true, then the apes should have died off a long time ago after the evolved human form developed. That hasn't happened.

Second, while there is significant evidence for evolution within, there is little to no evidence of evolution between different species. The only example that comes close is the belief that modern day birds "evolved" from the dinosaurs. This is based on the existence of extraneous bones found in many dinosaurs that scientists believe eventually evolved into wings due to the similarity in their shape. That still doesn't answer how archeopterax(sp?) and other early birds suddenly developed a feathered body instead of regular skin. Believing that certain bones began to extend and develop into wings is one thing. Completely changing their body composition is another thing entirely.

Finally, despite the similarities between apes and humans (and the fact that the supposedly "inferior" forms still exist in plentiful numbers), the other problem with evolution is the missing link. Scientists admit they still have not discovered the final link in the evolutionary change between ape to man. Until the chain is completed, the evidence is incomplete.

[Yorick]

Originally Posted by Lavindathar Now Yorick, "A person could argue that LIFE causes death. If only folks never lived, they'd never die!" comment to me seems like your being a little pedantic, and just want to reply to every other little point. Your other points however, seemed valid to me.

I was using humour to make a point. I do not think you could blame a thing that gives someone enhancement to their life, on their death. I mean, if you can find stats, go for it, but I'm sure old age, heart attack, car accidents, abortion (40 million in the USA since Roe v Wade) drugs and epidemics have wiped out more people than wars using religion as a motivator.

Religion is more often misused by people to manipulate them into achieving a certain end, than being innately at fault.

At the end of the day, human fear, greed and hate - things many religions try to limit - cause wars.

So if Hindu's kill Christians because they're converting, is it religion that's the issue, or fear and jealousy?

If Sunni Muslims kill Shi'a Muslims, is it really because of Islam, or because of lust for power, hate and/or fear?

The Russia/China did attempt it with their communism, but in theory communism is the only way to live. In practice, its not communism, its a dictatorship behing closed doors. True communism, in theory, should work, and be the best way to live. If part of that is having no "state" relgion, good for it. Or do you argue the point that theoretically true communism is failed idea?

Communism will always fail because it doesn't account for human nature.
It's a utopian ideal that would only work if human free will was removed - which is often what the governments tried to remove. Mass conformity. Brain-washing. Torture and intimidation.
The human spirit needs to be free to make mistakes.

And maybe humans do need to believe in something. Why can't they believe in life, and living, instead of believing things that have no proof behind them, and lead to death?

Life and living are states of being not beliefs. You could be aware of those things, and exalt life itself, but what is life? What is the difference between a live cow and a dead cow? Life. A mysterious force that animates cells. Observing life itself invites us to ask the question: "Why does live cow move, but dead cow stay still?"

"Belief" is the answer we find to be truest.

[SpiritWarrior]

Originally Posted by Cerek First off - I am very pleased to see a discussion of religion being allowed and remaining civil. I especially want to thank Luvian for allowing this thread to stay open because of the civility, but keeping an eye on things just in case. This has been an interesting read and several posts have been made throughout that I would like to answer or counter. I will agree that organized religion has cause a lot of problems in the past and continues to do so today (thought not to the degree it did before). However, I certainly challenge the notion that "religion causes more death per year than anything else, including disease". Lav, do you honostly believe more people are killed in America because of religion than auto accidents? Do you really think religion causes more death in Ethiopia than famine or disease? Exactly how is religion responsible for so many global deaths? The other main point I wanted to counter was evolution. I've looked into this a bit to see what evidence is available and how solid it is. I found several key questions remained unanswered. The most obvious question is, if humans evolved from apes (or a similar animal), then why do we still have apes? This is not a straw-man argument. The founding core for any type of evolution within a species is that the evolved form is better equipped to survive and the non-evolved forms eventually die out due to their lack of adaptability. If this true, then the apes should have died off a long time ago after the evolved human form developed. That hasn't happened. Second, while there is significant evidence for evolution within, there is little to no evidence of evolution between different species. The only example that comes close is the belief that modern day birds "evolved" from the dinosaurs. This is based on the existence of extraneous bones found in many dinosaurs that scientists believe eventually evolved into wings due to the similarity in their shape. That still doesn't answer how archeopterax(sp?) and other early birds suddenly developed a feathered body instead of regular skin. Believing that certain bones began to extend and develop into wings is one thing. Completely changing their body composition is another thing entirely. Finally, despite the similarities between apes and humans (and the fact that the supposedly "inferior" forms still exist in plentiful numbers), the other problem with evolution is the missing link. Scientists admit they still have not discovered the final link in the evolutionary change between ape to man. Until the chain is completed, the evidence is incomplete.

Valid points, and, food for thought. I just don't understand how because it is complicated, (and in many cases, not fully understood), that so many in our society then kinda wash their hands of it and say "Oh, don't question it, God did it all". Or "The lord works in mysterious ways". To me, that's like giving up on the answers. Just because something is beyond our comprehension doesn't mean that the explanation of that something should shift into an entirely different one that is suddenly irrational and illogical. It's like saying, "A wizard did it" in an effort to explain away anything that has us mystified.

[Yorick]

Originally Posted by SpiritWarrior I just don't understand how because it is complicated, (and in many cases, not fully understood), that so many in our society then kinda wash their hands of it and say "Oh, don't question it, God did it all". Or "The lord works in mysterious ways". To me, that's like giving up on the answers.

I completely agree, as does Tim Keller, senior pastor of Redeemer Church in Manhattan.
A strong, vibrant faith is only gotten by asking hard questions. By re-evaluating belief and by continually examining ones life.

I love discussing faith because it often times allows me to think thinks in new ways which helps my faith become stronger.
If I get hit with a curve-ball, as I have many times in my life, I then seek out an answer. FAITH, is strongest when maintaining belief during a period of doubt. When you come out the other side, the belief is stronger and more assured because it was tested.

I mean, a Christian who is dedicating their life to serving God has a greater need to be certain God is who we believe him to be, than an agnostic. Who wants to live a lie?

I have asked myself more difficult questions that you could possibly imagine. My faith as a result has been refined in the fire of difficulty, pain and doubt.

Just because something is beyond our comprehension doesn't mean that the explanation of that something should shift into an entirely different one that is suddenly irrational and illogical. It's like saying, "A wizard did it" in an effort to explain away anything that has us mystified.

I agree. But faith is logical.

Is it crazy to get on an airplane, having faith that the mechanics and pilots have all done their job, and it will fly?

We'd call a person with flight-fear "illogical" for NOT having such faith.

How about trust and faith in a relationship? Trust is built on shared life experiences. So is faith.

[Jaradu]

Do you really think religion causes more death in Ethiopia than famine or disease? Exactly how is religion responsible for so many global deaths?

IMO, a few less missionaries preaching the sin of condoms and a bit more distribution of contraception would go a long way.

The most obvious question is, if humans evolved from apes (or a similar animal), then why do we still have apes? This is not a straw-man argument. The founding core for any type of evolution within a species is that the evolved form is better equipped to survive and the non-evolved forms eventually die out due to their lack of adaptability. If this true, then the apes should have died off a long time ago after the evolved human form developed. That hasn't happened.

That's like asking, "If Americans are descendants of European immigrants, why are there still Europeans?" The apes we see today are not our fathers, but our cousins. We are no more evolved than any other form of life on the planet, we've all been around for the same amount of time. Nothing is superior or inferior - the fact that all life today has survived a 4 billion year long gauntlet whilst 99% of all species that have ever existed have died off is a testament to strength of our cousins.

Second, while there is significant evidence for evolution within, there is little to no evidence of evolution between different species. The only example that comes close is the belief that modern day birds "evolved" from the dinosaurs. This is based on the existence of extraneous bones found in many dinosaurs that scientists believe eventually evolved into wings due to the similarity in their shape. That still doesn't answer how archeopterax(sp?) and other early birds suddenly developed a feathered body instead of regular skin. Believing that certain bones began to extend and develop into wings is one thing. Completely changing their body composition is another thing entirely.

For examples of the transition from reptiles to birds, I'd suggest looking up Sinosauropteryx prima, Shenzhouraptor and Ornithomimosaurs. The example you gave, Archaeopteryx, is defined as a bird but has many more dinosaur-qualities than bird-qualities, and is considered transitional but not ancestral.

Finally, despite the similarities between apes and humans (and the fact that the supposedly "inferior" forms still exist in plentiful numbers), the other problem with evolution is the missing link. Scientists admit they still have not discovered the final link in the evolutionary change between ape to man. Until the chain is completed, the evidence is incomplete.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html

You don't even have to read the text, just scroll down slowly and look at the images. That looks pretty concrete to me.

[machinehead]

Also Dromaeosauridae dinosaurs such as velociraptor had feathers.
http://www.physorg.com/news109516799.html

[machinehead]

Humans evolved in Africa not everywhere at once, and then migrated. Apes fill limited ecological niches in areas remote from concentrated human habitation. Where there are substantial human populations they are pushed out or die out. I think they are all endangered and now survive only because areas have been set aside for them.