Cloudy's Cafe-a conversation zone, 5-3-02

[Glorfindel]

From what I know isnt Guerilla a type of Warfare? And freedom-Fighters are those that fight for freedom? I agree that lots of the 'freedom-fighters' use Guerilla tactics due to the fact that they are out numbered and usually out armed... I might be wrong though

[Glorfindel]

Originally posted by Galadria: quote: Originally posted by Ar-Cunin: Everybody that server on the eastern front committed warcrimes - germans and russians alike - It was that kind of war.

True, but that doesn't excuse it. Also, the Wehrmact was deeply involved in rounding up Jews for shipment to the Camps in the occupied territories, notably in France and Poland.[/QUOTE] But that doesnt mean that was their ideals was it? Who commanded the Wehrmact?

[Galadria]

Originally posted by Glorfindel: quote: Originally posted by Galadria: quote: Originally posted by Ar-Cunin: Everybody that server on the eastern front committed warcrimes - germans and russians alike - It was that kind of war.

True, but that doesn't excuse it. Also, the Wehrmact was deeply involved in rounding up Jews for shipment to the Camps in the occupied territories, notably in France and Poland.[/QUOTE] But that doesnt mean that was their ideals was it? Who commanded the Wehrmact? [/QUOTE]I won't presume to speak for the ideals of every member of the Wehrmacht. In fact, I know that some of them were principled idealists who loathed Hitler, Rommel being high among them and one of my personal heroes, Adm. Wilhelm Canaris, head of the Abwehr, the German Secret Servicewho was murdered by the Gestapo for his part in the plot to murder Hitler. All that I am saying is that the Wehrmacht as a whole is not blameless in the war-crimes.
Also, Glorfy, the Wehrmacht was commanded by the General Staff, which, in the event, meant that it was commanded by Hitler, himself, increasingly personally in the latter stages of the war.

[Glorfindel]

Goodnight all [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img] I gotta get some sleep so I can peforme at this gig We've got tomorrow... 700 people AHH! ah well report late tomorrow when I have gotten everything done

[uss]

Originally posted by Galadria: Morning, all. Uss "Enemy at the Gates" was about Stalingrad, and the bad guy was a Nazi sniper, so I had no good feelings about him. When I was young, like you, I hated the Russians (the Cold War was on, and we were doing "Duck and Cover" drills at school) and I kinda liked the Germans. Then, I read a book about what they actually did, including a gruesome photograph of a beautiful Russian girl that they had hanged as a partisan, and I had an enormous revulsion of feeling. From then on, and to this day, I hated the Nazis, and in all of the books that I have read, since, nothing has changed my mind about those ...unmitigated swine. One of my favorite book titles is Death of a Nazi Army, by Breuer, about the Falaise pocket.

i did have good feelings about him. he(in the movie) was a good man. sure, he did kill the child but the child promised that he wont betray Major Köning(his name) but he did so he got executed. btw, he did apologize for what he did.
anyway, Germany and Nazi were indeed under the command of the madman Hitler but the communists aka Russians were much crueler as much as ive heard. Germany was Estonias saviour in some ways. Estonia was in the SS too and they were between Russia and Germany. my teacher and my brother are total WW2 fanatics and they always talk with each other about it and thats why i know a bit about it. they both are in the side of Germany when talking about it. my teacher said to me the reason why hitler killed all those Jews. when he was younger, he was an artist. my teacher showed me one of his pictures. as much as i saw, he was professional. anyway, he wanted to go to an artschool so he showed some pics to the critics. he didnt get in and since all/most of the critics were jews, his hate went to them. all those jews were killed because of his personal hatred. he was a cruel man but i think Germany wasnt that cruel. i once did a thread about WW2 and i laughed soo hard when i read that LadyBlue said: "yes, it is true that germans were bloodthirsty at the time". i think thats a stupid statement. Germans didn`t kill because they were bloodthirsty, they killed because of honor. ive heard that Russia actually was ALOT worse than Germany but Germany was the victim of propaganda. btw, Russia was(and still is) very poor. they rewarded soldiers with food.

[Attalus]

Well, uss, Galadria has gone out, but she asked me to check this thread for her, so I guess that it falls to me to answer you. Yes, Russia was cruel. It was lead and totally dominated by Josef Stalin, one of the most disgusting mass-murderers in history, and I know that they oppressed Estonia until very recently. I am very glad that your people are now free of Soviet domination.
But, that said, the Germans in WWII have nothing to say for them, however much you loathe the Soviets. I don't think that "bloodthirsty" is a good adjective to describe them, but they were indeed cruel and cold. Their anti-Semitism was deeply implanted, and no facile reference to Hitler's "artwork" (which, BTW, is only a few postcard-like scenes) and its reception is enough to explain it. During the depression brought on by the harsh terms of the Versailles Treaty, the Jews were blamed for Germany's surrender (the "stab in the back" theory) and this is one reason that Hitler and the Nazis used it, as a scapegoat to explain Germany's military defeat. In reality, the twin events of America's entry into the War and the invention of the armored tank were what doomed the Spring 1918 offense, and pretty much made it impossible to win. That is why they sued for peace, no Jews involved. They, as always, blamed the Jews in the U.S.A. for our entry into the war, when it was much more connected with the unrestricted submarine warfare and the sinking of the Lusitania.

[uss]

hi, Attalus! i dont think weve spoken before [img]smile.gif[/img] .
well, i really dont know about WW2 that much but i belive my brother would say something against you. ill see what comments he has later. but i know from my teacher that the number of jews that were killed is smaller than they say. he said that, that many jews(cant remember the number) couldnt even fit in all the crematoriums. and yes, some of them were cruel and merciless but hitler was the main reason why they had such a bad reputation.
btw, i found a hitlers drawn pic i think its pretty good heres the link:

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Hitler/artist/C...1912_17x22.jpg

[Epona]

Originally posted by uss: hi, Attalus! i dont think weve spoken before [img]smile.gif[/img] . well, i really dont know about WW2 that much but i belive my brother would say something against you. ill see what comments he has later. but i know from my teacher that the number of jews that were killed is smaller than they say. he said that, that many jews(cant remember the number) couldnt even fit in all the crematoriums. and yes, some of them were cruel and merciless but hitler was the main reason why they had such a bad reputation. btw, i found a hitlers drawn pic i think its pretty good heres the link: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Hitler/artist/C...1912_17x22.jpg

That's BOLLOCKS uss - no disrespect to you, but filth like that is spreading all over. Don't believe a word of it. Incidentally, I believe publishing statements of 'Holocaust Denial' is now illegal in the UK.

I know an old jewish guy who survived Auschwitz concentration camp and was experimented on, his wife and baby didn't. They were only out of England visiting relatives when they were rounded up. It cuts me to the core every time I see the number (98288) tattoed on his arm. I'm not gonna take any of this kind of crap sitting down. Don't fall for the lies.

He's written a book about his experiences, in the hope that it will stop lies about the holocaust from taking hold. It's called 'An Englishman in Auschwitz', author Leon Greenman, ISBN 0 8530 3424 9

[ 05-04-2002, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: Epona ]

[Talthyr Malkaviel]

I have to agree with Epona here Uss, even if the amount of Jews isn't as much as some say (and that's almost guaranteed since there are so many differing estimates) but that doesn't lessen the atrocity that it was.
The concentration camps were horrible, and I'm guessing you know about the "communal shower" method they had, however many were killed, that is just wrong.

[Galadria]

Epona and Talthy, I quite agree with you. The amount of revisionism on this topic stinks to high heaven. The perverted logic of it seems to be, "Well, if the Holocaust didn't really happen, then it's okay to be anti-semitic and anti-Isreal, without being lumped with the mass-murdering Nazis." No one will ever know how many Jews (and Gypsies and Communists and homosexuals, etc.) were gassed, shot, tortured to death, starved, worked to death, etc., et horrible cetera. That's because the Nazis, being methodical, destroyed all the records that they could. The most important document that did survive, the Wannsee Protocol, almost didn't - only one copy was ever found, the Foreign Ministry copy. I have heard more than one Nazi-phile actually lament that the secret was almost kept! The depth of the hypocrisy is appalling.