They cut his head off...

[Ronn_Bman]

What a sick, twisted, ruthless, sadistic bunch of "freedom fighters" these guys are. If you needed proof that these terrorists have to be handled differently, here it is.

[ 02-24-2002: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

[Barry the Sprout]

I don't agree with their actions anymore than you Ronn. They disgust me as well, and I agree that this is the work of a ruthless group of people.

But...

I think this proves my point more than yours (well, I would, wouldn't I) to be honest. Actions like this are simply going to become more and more commonplace if we are seen to attack the muslim world. This may not be our intention, but that is how it seems to them I feel. Sorry, but I just don't think that going in with guns blazing will solve anything. And we have locked horns over this several times, so I am sure my response comes as no surprise to you.

Basically, my thoughts are that there is a lot of hatred of us out there already. We need to calm things down, not stoke the flames.

[Ronn_Bman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barry the Sprout:
I don't agree with their actions anymore than you Ronn. They disgust me as well, and I agree that this is the work of a ruthless group of people.

But...

I think this proves my point more than yours (well, I would, wouldn't I) to be honest. Actions like this are simply going to become more and more commonplace if we are seen to attack the muslim world. This may not be our intention, but that is how it seems to them I feel. Sorry, but I just don't think that going in with guns blazing will solve anything. And we have locked horns over this several times, so I am sure my response comes as no surprise to you.

Basically, my thoughts are that there is a lot of hatred of us out there already. We need to calm things down, not stoke the flames.

---

To me it just proves that those who find it acceptable to target innocents also find it acceptable to mutilate them. Another good reason to eliminate instead of educate.


Some learning is painful. Have you ever seen a child stick their finger too close to a flame and get burned? They learn quickly not to touch the flame. Many lessons in life are learned this way. Not from respect, full bellies, or love, but "the hard way". You think Western Civilization should learn to keep it's finger out of the Middle Eastern Flame, I think terrorists should learn fire will kill them.

[Barry the Sprout]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:


To me it just proves that those who find it acceptable to target innocents also find it acceptable to mutilate them. Another good reason to eliminate instead of educate.


Some learning is painful. Have you ever seen a child stick their finger too close to a flame and get burned? They learn quickly not to touch the flame. Many lessons in life are learned this way. Not from respect, full bellies, or love, but "the hard way". You think Western Civilization should learn to keep it's finger out of the Middle Eastern Flame, I think terrorists should learn fire will kill them.

---

These aren't kids Ronn. What do you do if the flame is everywhere. The flame is burning all that you beleive in. The flame has already burnt your family to death in some cases. What can you do? You can try to make the flame go away.

We need to stop putting the flame under their noses, they need to start doing the same. Neither is going to happen if we just go around burning each other and hoping that one side will eventually "learn".

Sorry, I just don't agree with your way forward from this point. Thats all.

[ 02-24-2002: Message edited by: Barry the Sprout ]

[Ronn_Bman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barry the Sprout:


These aren't kids Ronn. What do you do if the flame is everywhere. The flame is burning all that you beleive in. The flame has already burnt your family to death in some cases. What can you do? You can try to make the flame go away.

We need to stop putting the flame under their noses, they need to start doing the same. Neither is going to happen if we just go around burning each other and hoping that one side will eventually "learn".

Sorry, I just don't agree with your way forward from this point. Thats all.

[ 02-24-2002: Message edited by: Barry the Sprout ]

---

No they aren't kids, nor are they playing games, but adults can learn lessons the hard way, too.

What they want US to learn is to stay out of that area of the world. We'll never "learn" that, not everyone there wants US out. The terrorists cannot achieve that goal. Do we just bow out because they want us to?

What we want them to learn is that the intentional killing of innocents is unacceptable and will not result in their desired objective. We can make it very difficult for their approach to be considered successful by anyone. Without success, who will follow?

Which makes more sense?

[ 02-24-2002: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

[Larry_OHF]

I'm with Ronn.

Alot of people in the world outside the U.S. are hoping we exterminate the vermin, and are rather upset we haven't done it fast enough.

Those foolish creeps are trying to show us that they are not afraid of us.

They will be made to fear.

[Barry the Sprout]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:


No they aren't kids, nor are they playing games, but adults can learn lessons the hard way, too.

What they want US to learn is to stay out of that area of the world. We'll never "learn" that, not everyone there wants US out. The terrorists cannot achieve that goal. Do we just bow out because they want us to?

What we want them to learn is that the intentional killing of innocents is unacceptable and will not result in their desired objective. We can make it very difficult for their approach to be considered successful by anyone. Without success, who will follow?

Which makes more sense?

[ 02-24-2002: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

---

They intentionally kill civilians in order to achieve an objective. We accidentally kill civilians in order to achieve an objective. It may not be much of a consolation to the civilians in question that we did it for the defense of liberty, and they did it for the defence of a religious ideal. They are still dead.

Larry - They will be made to fear? I doubt I need to remind you that that is their objective too. Hence the "terror" part of "terrorist".

Please guys, take a step back.

We are people, they are people. Lets all just stop killing each other. Its novel, but it might work.

[DragonMage]

I hope they realize that, while this horrifies and sickens us, it by no means makes us afraid...

At least not me and MY ilk!

*insert appropriate unladylike swearing here*

[Ronn_Bman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barry the Sprout:


We are people, they are people. Lets all just stop killing each other. Its novel, but it might work.

---

Actually, it's not novel at all. It's an old idea that's rarely worked, and when it has, it's worked primarly on a temporary basis. Throughout history this has been because those who seek power find murder a simple method of intimidation and conquest.

Now, of course as you say, they are people (if they were animals they'd be easier to find and "put-down" onsite), but they are people who believe in cutting off the head of someone who meant them no harm in order to further their goals. In case you missed that, they cut off his freaking head. Maybe it's time for them to worry about world opinion. Maybe it's time they learned the world has an opinion about what they are doing, and that they aren't free to act as they see fit. Maybe it's time those who casually support them decide that isn't such a good idea.

When this world becomes perfect let me know, until then, these terrorists must be stopped. The "big whig" who helped orchestrate the kidnapping of Daniel Pearl gave himself up due to pressure directly related to the war on terrorism. The kidnapping was planned and enacted well after Afghanistan was freed from the Taliban and Al-Queta, but he quickly decided things would not be working out as planned and that things of this nature would not be ignored as they had before. That's the kind of thing we're working for in this action. Making it unappealing/unhealthy to stick to their warped methods.

What about the in-fighting in Algeria? The Al-Queta training tape filmed there that shows the throat-slitting of captive soldiers, and trucks driving over those forced to lie on the ground? We aren't involved (the fighting there is against the Muslim government that isn't fundimental enough for some), so is that our fault, too. Will the killing stop there, too, in this perfect world?

Maybe I'm just too thick. Maybe you should try and convince some Al-Queta members first. Let me know what they say... [img]smile.gif[/img]

Of course, as you mentioned in another thread, the debate about terrorism can really clog things up. The proof of that is that the decapitation of Daniel Pearl gets little more than a "that's bad, and the people who did it are bad, but..."

[ 02-24-2002: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

[Ronn_Bman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barry the Sprout:


They intentionally kill civilians in order to achieve an objective. We accidentally kill civilians in order to achieve an objective. It may not be much of a consolation to the civilians in question that we did it for the defense of liberty, and they did it for the defence of a religious ideal. They are still dead.

---

True, but the difference in accidental and intentional really does make a huge difference. People die through accidents every second of every minute of everyday in every corner of the world, but when they die through the intentional actions of others it's murder. The difference is like that between night and day. It just a difference that doesn't help your point of view