Religion

[Grungi]

oh and to the missionary argument

If the countries laws are such then its christians fault for breaching them and they deserve everything they get.

Saying that it should NOT be a law of any country to outlaw any one religion so the whole situation should not arise in the first place, everyone should be allowed full freedom of belief so long as they do not inflict it on others, converting other people in my opinion is wrong, if your religion is so great and if a god truly exists then you will believe because it is right you dont need another human telling you its right, you will believe because god puts you on the right path to believe, so by trying to convert people your forcing your religion on them, and im not speaking for all religions but when im woken up at 7am on a saturday morning after a harddays work on friday by two old ladies who want to quote the bible at me and go on and on and on with me politely trying to tell them to go i get fed up with it, next time ANYONE tries it im telling them to go ■■■■ themselves and i feel within my rights to do so. conversion is unneccesary:

god/gods does/do the converting so you dont have to [img]tongue.gif[/img]

anyhows point is everyone has the right in this world to believe what they want, and every country has the right to post its own laws, break those laws (however stupid) and unfortunately they have the right to do what they gotta do, but i think all countries in the world should sort it out and get with civilisation in terms of their laws, such as islamic law of women wearing veils or headdresses (no the qu'ran does NOT say to cover their faces, nor does it say they should be plain to other men so as not to tempt them, it just says dont go and flaunt your body in public, so big time wrong intepretation there) but till other countries change their stupid laws (or states, in philadelphia i believe its illegal to leave your giraffe tied to a lamppost [img]tongue.gif[/img] i kid u not) you still have to respect those laws and expect the repercussions when you break them, its not persecution as such thats the wrong word for it, id call it lawbreaking so criminal, unfortunately they may have good motives but at the end of the day they are still criminals by definition.

[The Lilarcor]

Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: quote: So you're saying it was actually the Christian's fault that they were fed to the lions for entertainment. I've heard a lot of twisted-logic arguments against Christianity...but this one takes the cake.

I would say that yes, it was their fault. After all , it was the romans who crucified christ in the first place. That would have been my first hint that my beliefs werent welcome in the area.It is kind of like how currently people go into muslim countries that have outlawed christianity and try to convert people and then wonder why they are arrested and punished. If you know practiceing and promoting christianity is a crime in the area you are in and you do it anyway, then you deserve your punishment.

[/QB][/QUOTE]First off I'd like to say that at the time when christ was crucified, rome was in control of Jerusalem and had not the jewish leaders arrested Jesus then
jesus would have been crucified. Once they jewish leaders had him, they took him to the provincial leader who only had him be crucified in the first place so thathe wouldn't have a rebellion on his hands.

Ans the reason it's illegal to preach christianity in the muslim countries is because of the crusades. Had the crusades not happened then maybe christians and Muslims would be on better terms today. And I more or less agree about the punishment thing... although it is of repression because in the countries where it is banned, christianity symbolizes freedom, independence and all that other stuff the governments don't want their people dealing with.

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: I suppose your response would be that they should respect the laws and stay out of those areas then. Maybe so...but the only problem with that is that the even though the Government may have outlawed Christianity, there are many individuals in those countries who disagree with the state-imposed religion and are looking for a better alternative.

Most of the time In history however It was conversion by force.

Like in Spain they forced Jews and Moslems to convert to Christianity or be ethnically cleansed. Over 200,000 Moslems were expelled in about 1608-1612 IIRC.
And those who were converted by force were still oppressed by the inquisition.
One of the Inquisitors was even made a saint.

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: But that isn't always the case. There are many, many stories of missionaries who have been captured, tortured, and killed for preaching in a certain area. Like I said, these missionaries understand the risk they face...but feel that serving God is worth the risk.

There are many incidences of Christians torturing people,
The Pope and the Catholic Church officially supported torture from the 1200’s to the 1700’s.

It wasn’t until 1816 that pope Pius VII issued a papal bull ending the catholic chrurchs endorsement of torture.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Eisenschwarz: There are many incidences of Christians torturing people, The Pope and the Catholic Church officially supported torture from the 1200?s to the 1700?s. It wasn?t until 1816 that pope Pius VII issued a papal bull ending the catholic chrurchs endorsement of torture.

Right, so, people were tortured as a means of conversion some 800-300 years ago and then the church decided to officially end torture by papal law in 1816. OK. Um, well, hate to break this to you man, but that was "800-300 years ago". Nowadays one would tend not to experience those sorts of conversion methods seeing as "the church decided to officially end torture by papal law in 1816" 'n all. Sorry for being sarcastic, but c'mon now, saying people in 2002 are morally questionable because of the actions of people hundreds of years in the past is simply an invalid course of argument.

[The Lilarcor]

Yes! And the reason because of crusades? Religion? Nah, when the turks conquered Jerusalem, the jews didn't mind, they weren't oppressed and didn't restrict the jewish and christian meetings and such. Its just when people travelling to and from had to pay tolls and taxes, they complained and made up stories, arousing the pope to get more lands and send off a bunch of soldiers to fight. And its those soldiers who tortured the muslims...

[Hiram Sedai]

I'm fresh from a theological arguement with my mother and step father. I wish I didn't even delve into it, but I was being a bit emotional at the time.

Does anyone win an arguement over religion?

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Hiram Sedai: Does anyone win an argument over religion?

Does anyone ever win an argument over anything?

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Hiram Sedai: I'm fresh from a theological arguement with my mother and step father. I wish I didn't even delve into it, but I was being a bit emotional at the time. Does anyone win an arguement over religion?

That all depends on how you define "winning", Hiram.

I began "debating theology" with a close personal friend of mine who is a dedicated atheist and a top-notch debater. Our discussions were done through e-mail with our other friends jumping in every now and then.

Since I joined IW, I've participated in numerous discussions on religion and theology. I'm a Born-Again Southern Baptist...but I've had some very entertaining (and enlightening) discussions with people of other faiths.

I've talked with pagans, atheists, agnostics, Wiccans, and Satanists on these forums...and I've learned a great deal about their beliefs. I still disagree with their chosen theologies, but I've gained a much better understanding of these different religions and I respect everyone's individual beliefs.

I consider that a "victory" for both sides...because I was very defensive about challenges and criticisms of Christianity when I began with my friend. I felt like I had to "win" our arguments. Now I realize that being able to have an enjoyable discussion in which both sides are respectful of each other is "victory" enough.

[Grungi]

btw interesting point is why do you play rpg's? my mum is a christian church of england and she hates anything rpg like, anything to do with magic shes not allowed to take part in and once my dad bought home some of his usual crappy christmas (which i do my best not to celebrate in any way, never one for gifts anyway) presents (goes to cheap store and buys whatever he can find so its always interesting [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) he brought what he thought was some game and it turned out to be tarot cards and my mum went mental saying to get them out of the house (my dad is an atheist so didnt know what the problem was) so by dint of this mum could not logon to this forum at all as its a roleplaying site which involves magic so she certainly wouldnt be playing the games .

so are rpgs allowed for a southern baptist then? and things like tarot cards and magic you dont care about? doesnt bother you either way? i dont understand my mums reaction because frankly tarot cards are just some cards with stupid markings, if people believe it fair enough but i thought she believed in god and if she does why should cards scare her? work of the devil? well surely if you got your bible at hand and faith to heart who gives a toss about some cards devilwork or not?

another thing i find about religious people is they pick the parts they want to be religious about, my mum for example NEVER turns the other cheek in any way shape or form yet shes so fervent about tarot cards, IMO it would be far better for her to let an argument about whose done the cleaning go than get upset over some cards. Far as im concerned if your going to follow a religion then no bullshit about it you follow that religion to the letter otherwise you dont really believe it, you cant pick the parts you like or the parts you dont want, you have to take the lot and believe the lot. All the so called christians i knew at school (went to the societies, were in the paper for all their charity work etc) were the bullies and drug users, some right evil bastards amongst them, yet they go to church every week , how does that work? how can someone have the right to punch me for no reason and insult me again for no reason yet then go to church that week and be accepted as a good christian? definately doesnt work for me and its people like that (95percent of religious people) that give the rest a bad name and the religion itself.

again like deep south fervent bible belt types who swear they worship god and are devout christians yet at the same time would kill any black people they see because of their colour? whats that about, do they not read the bible or something about men being brothers?

gah is all i can say oh and
bah
bah
bah

religion no thanks give me respect, honesty and love any day.

[Callum Kerr]

And all I wanted was some help with hwk...
O well... anyways... here are some points to consider...

"Far as im concerned if your going to follow a religion then no bullshit about it you follow that religion to the letter otherwise you dont really believe it, you cant pick the parts you like or the parts you dont want, you have to take the lot and believe the lot." - Grungi

I don't think its bullshit... if you were born a member of a religion, then you might disagree with some or all of the ideas in that religion... but go to church with the rest of the family (although those guys you mentioned sound like assholes)... I think that's fine. And you may join a religion for the OVERALL idea behind it, not every point. For example (and not getting at muslims... it just that i live in a muslim country and so this springs to mind) someone may join the muslim church as they believe it is the best church... BUT they may think that the way women have to dress is apalling... it's religion - what YOU believe in... in the end, all recognised religions are just giving you guidelines if you are at a loss to think of your own (like kits in icewind dale... you can use those OR you can customise your character)
I dunno if that makes sense or anything

Something else to think about (don't take offense)... If god is all powerful, then why are people so afraid of the devil?

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I'm what you might call a "practising atheist"