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Old 06-11-2001, 08:07 AM   #21
Ziroc
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He's now dead. I really wish the Media didn't cover it like he is some MOVIE star or something.. f'ing sick.

Personally, I'm glad he's dead, but part of me wanted him to live to an old age in prison. have the rest of his life to think about it, with ALL the victims pictures/faces on the inside of his prison walls.

Dan

[This message has been edited by Ziroc (edited 06-11-2001).]
 
Old 06-11-2001, 08:16 AM   #22
Wulfere
Red Wizard of Thay
 

Join Date: March 20, 2001
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
Age: 63
Posts: 893
OK...
I have worked in Federal Prisons, they are breeding grounds for crimminals, where they learn how to better victimize the society. Life in Prison is not life, it is 14 years if WE are lucky.
.
There are some people out there who are so evil, so without conscience, that any act they decide is good is acceptable. A human being, without conscience is not a human being, they are animals who only live to satisfy whatever need they have at the moment. To them the only evil in this world is that they not be allowed to fulfill a desire.
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Guns....Should we now ban knives, ball bats, pantyhose or any other item that has been used for killing. Where do we stop? More people are assaulted with knives than with guns. The difference is that a gun is more lethal. But would you prefer to be beaten with a ball bat and spend your life as a veg. Perhaps cars should be banned?
.
As far as the FBI. They do what they can with what they have. The Corruption is everywhere attitude sickens me. It implies that all those men and women are in this for something else, for some other reason. It lessens the sacrifices of those whos names are chiselled in stone for trying to push the darkness back.
They gave up their lives to try and stop insanity and violence. Show a little gratitude. I have worked with them and have high reguard for anyone in that feild of work.
.
OK I am done ranting.
PS...The thing in the prison deserves no more thought from me.
.
Live your life as best you can.
Do no harm to others.
Love well and tryly.
Ride the waves till they break.


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Old 06-11-2001, 08:17 AM   #23
antonius
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Join Date: May 14, 2001
Location: Leeds, England
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Not to disagree with our master...

He never met his victims. Their faces would mean nothing. Do you really think he cared at all?
I don't think he was treated like a movie star, but of course there will be interest in what happens. The fact that they had to decide not to video the thing speaks volumes. (coming soon to a theatre near you!). Society has an unhealthy interest in celebrity anyway - this is just the tip of the iceberg.
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Old 06-11-2001, 08:20 AM   #24
Fljotsdale
Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom
 

Join Date: March 12, 2001
Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England
Age: 87
Posts: 2,859
Quote:
Originally posted by Moiraine:
I am speaking here as a French, from what I personnally feel, and from I have read so far in newspapers and heard at the radio. I would like to add a few lines of thinking.

I personnally am against death penalty, mainly for the reasons Lavindathar has stated : what if you kill an innocent ?

Many people in France are less concerned about the fact that the guy will be killed, than about the fact that the execution will be PUBLIC. I am among them.

Some papers also say that the man was a lunatic, thus, as we believe in France, not totally responsible for his actions. What is the point of punishing someone if he doesn't understand what he did wrong and why he is punished ? As we see it, the man should be put into a center for lunatics, where he would get medical healing. Then, if the doctors succeed in curing him, he would get a new trial. Or stay there for life if he can't be cured.

Last point : Justice is NOT vengeance. Killing him will NOT make his victims come back to life. And killing him, in a way, makes the society not better than the man himself is. We in France have the case of a former Nazi (now a very old man), who have been recently condemned for crimes against humanity. He is more than 80, he never expressed any regret or apology for what he did. He will stay in jail until he dies. Killing him, as we feel, would put us at the same level as he. I personnally think that knowing that you won't go out of your cell until you die is a terrible punition. Maybe more terrible than a quick death.

Some say that public execution is to be understood as a way to remind people what they risk if they commit crimes, in an attempt to lower the crime rates. Does it work ? On that point, I have no opinion so far, but it makes me VERY uneasy.


That is the most sensible and balanced view I have read in this thread so far.
I don't really agree with not killing wilful murderers, but Moiraine almost has me convinced! And the point about not putting yourself down to the murderers level is one I agree with TOTALLY.
I'm with you almost all the way, Moiraine!

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Old 06-11-2001, 08:21 AM   #25
antonius
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Wulfere - I don't believe for one minute that the FBI (or anywhere else) is such a hotbed of corruption, but things happen for a reason - I have a nagging doubt that the investigation wasn't complete and the little detail about forgetting to pass on some prosecution documents adds to that.
When you start relying on confession to convict you can get problems (My own country has a pretty poor recent history with that.)
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Old 06-11-2001, 08:47 AM   #26
Charean
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Join Date: March 6, 2001
Location: Waxahachie, TX
Age: 59
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There are a couple of things that I have not really been able to work through yet. One of them is that the way our prison system currently works, we the taxpayers are under the burden of supporting them (which leads to another rant about having prisons become productive and supporting themselves) - and supporting McVeigh makes me feel icky.

Another is the death penalty. I cannot say I am for it, being a Buddhist really doesn't allow for that sort of thing, but I also understand there are some people who cannot be redeemed. The thing is, if *I* cannot kill a person, I cannot in good conscience expect someone else to. So there is my dilemma.

I certainly cannot condone the man, do not think he should be supported by the people, and I wish there was a way to change his way of thinking.

If this makes me sound wishy washy, well, on this issue I kinda am. It is something I have not been able to truly resolve for myself. I really can't expect the country to do so.

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Wandering Soul - Finding my life's calling is Bodhisattva
Looking for lost brain - I left it only for a moment....and there it goes... rolling under the table!!
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Old 06-11-2001, 08:55 AM   #27
Ziroc
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Quote:
Originally posted by antonius:
Not to disagree with our master...

He never met his victims. Their faces would mean nothing. Do you really think he cared at all?
I don't think he was treated like a movie star, but of course there will be interest in what happens. The fact that they had to decide not to video the thing speaks volumes. (coming soon to a theatre near you!). Society has an unhealthy interest in celebrity anyway - this is just the tip of the iceberg.

He was shown the pictures of who he killed in fed. court.. even if he didn't know them, he would KNOW that HE killed them. ALL the babies and kids..


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Old 06-11-2001, 09:00 AM   #28
Donut
Jack Burton
 

Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Airstrip One
Age: 39
Posts: 5,571
Generally speaking I am against the death penalty.

Firstly, on the grounds of possible innocence. How many innocent people are you prepared to see executed in order to execute the guilty? Since 1993 there have been 96 people released in 22 states (of the US) whilst they are on death row. The cases of people in Britain have also been mentioned. Once the deed is done the life cannot be returned.

Secondly, I think capital punishment has lost its moral meaning. Given that the taking of life has become more and more meaningless in modern society we have to ask the reasons for this form of punishment. It is not for deterrence, if that were the case the death penalty would cause the number of murders to decrease and they aren’t. In the US statistics show that the murder rate is lower in states that don’t have the death penalty than it is in neighbouring states that do (Iowa/Missouri, Wisconsin/Illinois). It certainly isn’t for rehabilitation. Furthermore, if we are able to lock a person up securely, for life without parole then I don’t think we can forward the argument that they will be a danger to others. The obvious reason for execution is revenge/justice/retribution. But do we achieve this by taking the life of the criminal? If I were offered the choice of spending my life locked up or being given an injection I would take the latter. But life must mean life – without hope of parole.

Thirdly, and here I must profess relative ignorance, isn’t there a view in the US that capital punishment is fundamentally racist? Far more executions (80%) are held for the murder of white victims than black even though whites and blacks are murdered in equal numbers.

Finally I will leave the ethical view on capital punishment to those of you who have religious convictions. Personally I am agnostic. Smoothbrain, I am surprised to hear you say that as a Catholic you should be ‘for’, capital punishment. Bishops in the US have been campaigning for abolition for over 25 years and the big man himself said:

‘ The new evangelization calls for followers of Christ who are unconditionally pro-life: who will proclaim, celebrate and serve the Gospel of life in every situation. A sign of hope is the increasing recognition that the dignity of human life must never be taken away, even in the case of someone who has done great evil. Modern society has the means of protecting itself, without definitively denying criminals the chance to reform. I renew the appeal I made most recently at Christmas for a consensus to end the death penalty, which is both cruel and unnecessary.’ --Pope John Paul II, January 27, 1999, St. Louis, Missouri.

One or two other points. Moiraine, it is interesting that it was the anti-capital punishment groups that wanted the execution televised because they felt it would further their cause.

Countries with the most executions in 1998 are (in order) China, The Peoples Republic of Congo, USA and Iran.

Few countries sanction the death penalty against people under the age of 18 when they committed the crime. Between 1990 and 1997 executions of offenders under 18 were carried out in Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, the USA and Yemen. Nine were in the USA.

Capital punishment in the UK was only totally abolished in 1998, up to that time it was available for people who committed High Treason or piracy on the high seas. The British Parliament now has no power to reopen the debate on capital punishment.

A comment from a survivor of the Oklahoma outrage, which I think, is very interesting. Royia Sims, now living in Tennessee, ‘I’m not going to waste my time travelling, for him to make an idiotic statement and then fall asleep’

Bah – my longest post ever, & I promised myself I would never get serious on this board (except for the cricket of course).


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[This message has been edited by Donut (edited 06-11-2001).]
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Old 06-11-2001, 09:14 AM   #29
antonius
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I didn't know that he'd seen the pictures of victims. News coverage over here wasn't what I'd have expected. Even so - I doubt from what I do know of him that it would make a difference anyway.

I think all forms of state punishment need to be re-evaluated. Just what is hoped to be achieved - does capital punishment work? does prison work?

Rascism - Looking at the UK a greater proportion of convictees are of minority descent. More of the prison populace (proportionately) are of minority descent.
I would suspect that race is a factor in determining arrest, then charging of crime, then persuance through the judicial system, then conviction, then punishment - even more so for "more serious" crime. This would naturally skew each step by a major amount. The death row in the UK would be almost exclusively black because of this.

I think you have to look at every option objectively - does the action achieve the stated goal with the minimum of cost (in whatever form)?

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Old 06-11-2001, 10:07 AM   #30
Moridin
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Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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I am going to refrain from any comments on the death penalty, prisons, race issues and so on......
I am going to comment on the the f*****g media however! I watched the 'execution' of McVeigh this morning while eating breakfast and I almost spewed with every bite. I do not condone what McVeigh did and I feel sorrow for his victims and their families, however I believe that ultimately Timothy McVeigh was tried, convicted and executed for the benefit of the media! This may seem like a strong statement, but the media is looking for numbers, bottom line! They want to 'touch' people's emotions and I am disgusted at the means that they do it! They give hours and hours of news time to a man that murdered 168 people. We know more about the life, mind and motive of Timothy McVeigh then we do about anyone else. Unfortunately the media have made him a martyr now for other militia groups and 'pyscotic' people out there.
If you don't think this is the case and no one will follow in his footsteps, just look at the high school shooting sprees lately. How many of those were 'copy cat' shootings? Would these have happened if a kid in Oregon wasn't subjected to hours of news coverage of shootings in Arkansas? Timothy McVeigh knew what he was doing when he detonated that bomb. It wasn't to murder people, it was to make a statement and he knew it would be covered by every media outlet in every country around the world. He suceeded in his mission!

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