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Old 06-17-2001, 07:22 PM   #1
Fljotsdale
Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom
 

Join Date: March 12, 2001
Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England
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Hope you don't mind, but I thought it best to take this out of the other thread!

Originally posted by Yorick[Quote]
Hey Fljotsdale, thanks for clearing that up. I guess it comes down to the Trinity aspect then which is I suppose the more central anyhow. What defines a Christian is the belief in Christ as God-become-man who enables relationship with the creator. Other world religions can accept Jesus, but not Jesus as God. … Additionally we believe we have the third part of the Trinity - The Spirit - inside us. The concept certainly isn't "unbiblical".... do the JWs use the same bible? I heard it was very different. I heard this years and years ago from a family friend who joined a JW church for a little while as a counter-missionary??!! Yep....

On what scriptures do you base your belief in the Trinity, Yorick? Let me know!!

Do JW’s have the same bible or is it very different?

JW’s are happy to use ANY bible. Their own translation has received widespread praise from scholars for it’s accuracy. It does differ in two ways from ‘traditional bibles, however:
1. It is written in modern languages not the language in use at the time of the English King James.
There are many other modern translations of the bible available, since we speak Modern English and do not fully comprehend King James’ English, which used words in a somewhat different sense than we do today. (Just a ‘for instance’: The Catholic Duay bible uses the word ‘concupiscence’. Do you know what it means? Many people would not. It simply translates into Modern English as ‘desire’!) All modern translations update terminology in the same way. This does not mean such translations are inaccurate. On the contrary, modern scholarship is much greater than it was in the time of King James, and discoveries of ancient manuscripts have been able to identify certain ‘anomalies’ introduced by the ancient Catholic hierarchy to support their dogma. This is not a JW thing, but commonly known among bible scholars worldwide.
2. The JW translation has reinserted the name of god wherever it was used in ancient texts and subsequently removed by later Jewish copyists (for the simple reason that every time they had to write the name they were obliged to purify themselves both before and after writing the name. It was faster to just write in Lord or God or some other substitute).


There was a movement in the early church called Arianism which was the first schism - earlier even than the Roman Catholic/Eastern Orthodox schism - which the Germanic tribes converted to. Using various biblical interpretaions, Arianism refuted the concept of the trinity, but died out.

Yep. Arian refused to accept (amongst other things)the church doctrine of the Trinity because it was not scriptural. Brave man, whatever else may be said about him!

Perhaps this is the main reason why the Christian Church does not embrace the JWs.

One reason. That and the use of the name Jehovah (in English) Also, you know, the JW's don't WANT to be accepted by the churches. They would feel they had gone badly wrong somewhere, if they were!

Oh re. the old testament, Pentecostal Churches give a lot of time and importance to the old testament. For example "Prosperity Doctrine" (a pet hate of mine BTW) can only draw credence from the old testament. It is the belief that Gods "Blessings" are material and financial, rather than mental and spiritual/psychological. Brrrrr I've never heard of a Third world Prosperity Preacher, only Rich American or American influenced ones (yes we have them in Oz)

Well, you won’t find JW’s supporting THAT nasty idea, lol!

Oh it is in "James" that works are spoken of. Martin Luther argued against James' inclusion because of that very concept and how it could be misinterpreted.

Well, apologies to Martin Luther, but if ya gonna believe the bible you don’t go chopping out the bits you don’t like….
And anyway, James 2:14-26 can hardly be misinterpreted unless parts of it are taken out of context. Context is important in ANYTHING. Look how the Media constantly takes comments out of context, lol!


Finally, yeah I'd consider you a friend....

Thank you!


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[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 06-17-2001).]
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Old 06-18-2001, 07:31 AM   #2
Fljotsdale
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bump

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Old 06-18-2001, 06:24 PM   #3
Fljotsdale
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Old 06-19-2001, 02:58 AM   #4
Yorick
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Ok. Fjlotsdale, I'll get you some references. While I look them up (I'm working at the mo.) try reading around the beggining of the gospel of John and the stuff about the word (spirit/mind/intent/verbalisation) becoming human; "the great commission"; "the baptism of Jesus"; and "Pentecost" to sate your appetite for Theological parries I've never been a verse quoter, more a thematic ponderer, but I'll find the precise verses though if you like.

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Old 06-19-2001, 12:48 PM   #5
Absynthe
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Hope I'm not interrupting....
I don't post often, usually just read a bit when I have the time, which is rarely, but I'd like to encourage the two of you to continue this thread. this kind of frank and respectful discourse is one of the main reasons I enjoy this forum, and it's been rather thin on the ground lately. I also have an abiding interest in theology, especially schisms in Christianity.
Not to mention that the two of you are good debaters.
 
Old 06-19-2001, 03:21 PM   #6
Fljotsdale
Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom
 

Join Date: March 12, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Ok. Fjlotsdale, I'll get you some references. While I look them up (I'm working at the mo.) try reading around the beggining of the gospel of John and the stuff about the word (spirit/mind/intent/verbalisation) becoming human; "the great commission"; "the baptism of Jesus"; and "Pentecost" to sate your appetite for Theological parries I've never been a verse quoter, more a thematic ponderer, but I'll find the precise verses though if you like.

Already know where you you're at! Bring on your ammo!

Ya know - I really miss this sort of debate since I 'dropped out' of religion!


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Old 06-19-2001, 03:23 PM   #7
Fljotsdale
Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom
 

Join Date: March 12, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by Absynthe:
Hope I'm not interrupting....
I don't post often, usually just read a bit when I have the time, which is rarely, but I'd like to encourage the two of you to continue this thread. this kind of frank and respectful discourse is one of the main reasons I enjoy this forum, and it's been rather thin on the ground lately. I also have an abiding interest in theology, especially schisms in Christianity.
Not to mention that the two of you are good debaters.
You are welcome, Absynthe! Can't speak for Yorick, but I doubt he'll mind
If you want to comment on anything, add your opinions, feel free!


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Old 06-19-2001, 04:23 PM   #8
Cloudbringer
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Yorick!

Every time I think I'll answer in thread or conversation like this, I see you do it better than I ever could and with the same basic philosophies. You are obviously well read and well grounded in Christianity as well as other beliefs, which makes your replies so good. Not to mention, I admire your ability to debate and discuss so clearly. I'm truly delighted whenever I stumble across your posts like this!

Cloudy

PS- Oh and F- you do well, too! LOL, sorry, I submitted before I finished!
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[This message has been edited by Cloudbringer (edited 06-19-2001).]
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Old 06-19-2001, 06:44 PM   #9
Fljotsdale
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Join Date: March 12, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cloudbringer:
Yorick!

Every time I think I'll answer in thread or conversation like this, I see you do it better than I ever could and with the same basic philosophies. You are obviously well read and well grounded in Christianity as well as other beliefs, which makes your replies so good. Not to mention, I admire your ability to debate and discuss so clearly. I'm truly delighted whenever I stumble across your posts like this!

Cloudy

PS- Oh and F- you do well, too! LOL, sorry, I submitted before I finished!
Hey, Cloudbringer! Since you are currently an Egyptian god, maybe you have an authoritative opinion on this?!

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Old 06-20-2001, 03:34 PM   #10
Fljotsdale
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just a little bump. Will post later

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