Believe in Life after Death?

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Yorick: What about a religion that sacrifices babies and believes in killing any dissenters or people of differing faiths. Do we respect that belief too? I am careful in making absolute statements. I repect a belief with shows care for life and respect of my own. A belief which impacts negatively on others I have a harder time respecting or allowing time for. On a more moderate level, is a belief that says everyone is wrong (except them) not worthy of the same respect as one which says everyone is right? Are these not just opposite beliefs? Why do "we" tolerate everything escept intolerance? Doesn't true tolerance allow room for an intolerant viewpoint? (within reason of course) There may not be RIGHT or WRONG in terms of absolutes, but there definitely is something that WRONGS another, and something that does RIGHT for someone. Replace right and wrong with benefit and detract. In that sense there are religions that benefit both believers and non-believers (right), and religions that detract from a positive life experience for both it's followers and bystanders (wrong). Am I right? or am I wrong?

You make some very good points, Yorick. But, as Sazerac pointed out, we should love one another AS JESUS LOVED US.
Now, I speak as an atheist with a good knowledge of the bible (and a limited knowledge of other beliefs).
But I think that most people don't really understand what 'As Jesus loved us' means.
It doesn't mean being passive. It doesn't mean accepting eveything. While he lived, Jesus was a very strong and decisive man. Kind and patient, yes. Tolerant, no. He pointed out to people where they needed to make changes if they wished to escape damnation. He told some that they were wicked and would not escape damnation. He whipped the money-lenders out of the temple.
Yes, he also died 'that you (his followers) might live'. NOT all mankind. HIS FOLLOWERS. Only those who 'loved as he did', who were willing to sacrifice everything to obey the 'word of god' - as he did.
Hm. End of lecture, lol!
You are welcome to a session of Fljotsdale-bashing now, if you like

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Smile! Life is too short for bitching!

Fljotsdale

[Fljotsdale]

BUMP

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Smile! Life is too short for bitching

Fljotsdale

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: Yes, he also died 'that you (his followers) might live'. NOT all mankind. HIS FOLLOWERS. Only those who 'loved as he did', who were willing to sacrifice everything to obey the 'word of god' - as he did.

Well Fjlotsdale, that's open to interpretation.
"I have come not to judge the world but to save it"
There are those who believe that belief is not a prerequisite to salvation, as choosing to believe is an action - a choice. Jesus looks at the heart of an individual, not just their actions.

What of those who lived before Christ? What of those who have never heard? What of those who die as infants beyond understanding?

Paul says we are "judged" on what we know. C.S.Lewis hypothesises that it's not the religious walk that's important, but the application.

I personally believe if someone wants in there deepest heart and soul to be with God for eternity they will be, no matter what walk. In this regard "spreading the word" is not the desperate act of "saving the world" some believe it to be.

The difference the christian walk gives me though is here and now. It means I can know the creator while in the creation. I can enjoy this life with all it's ups and down with the companionship of a loving God, with the full knowledge of his love, so that when I'm in the afterlife I have experienced so much of the Creators love already. If I seek to "spread the word" it should be as a result of the desire to share my perspective and the freedom it gives, and because Jesus commanded it, not because I think I'm going to "save the lost". Only Jesus does that.

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 05-19-2001).]

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: You make some very good points, Yorick. But, as Sazerac pointed out, we should love one another AS JESUS LOVED US. Now, I speak as an atheist with a good knowledge of the bible (and a limited knowledge of other beliefs). But I think that most people don't really understand what 'As Jesus loved us' means. It doesn't mean being passive. It doesn't mean accepting eveything. While he lived, Jesus was a very strong and decisive man. Kind and patient, yes. Tolerant, no. He pointed out to people where they needed to make changes if they wished to escape damnation. He told some that they were wicked and would not escape damnation. He whipped the money-lenders out of the temple. Yes, he also died 'that you (his followers) might live'. NOT all mankind. HIS FOLLOWERS. Only those who 'loved as he did', who were willing to sacrifice everything to obey the 'word of god' - as he did. Hm. End of lecture, lol! You are welcome to a session of Fljotsdale-bashing now, if you like

Fljostdale, I agree that love is not passive to accept peoples actions no matter what they are is not love ie; when my childern were little I didn't accept them playing with the electrical outlets.
Jesus stated that he was the son of God, not that he was God. While talking about that He and the Father were one, they were one in spirit, one in goals, one in thoughts, and actions. Jesus is the Christ, the redemer of the world, the only begotton Son of God. He came to redem all man to the Father, not just those that follow Him to the Father. We have the choice to follow or not to follow, those that follow receive the blessing.
Fljostdale, no disrepect intended, I question your atheism. After reading your post on this subject (this and other posts) IMHO I would say that you are disatisfied with orginized religon not God, something I understand and can agree with.


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"the memories of a man in his old age,
are deeds of a man in his prime"

[Moiraine]

What about all the people who have lived BEFORE Jesus and the concept of an unique God ?

I think it would be most unfair from God not to take care of them.

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The world is my oyster !
And now I have the knives to open it ...

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Moiraine: What about all the people who have lived BEFORE Jesus and the concept of an unique God ? I think it would be most unfair from God not to take care of them.

That's what I was talking about. Did you read my post Moiraine? I don't believe they are NOT taken care of.


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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Yorick]

I should point out that my belief is just ONE biblical interpretation. I could of course be wrong, but that is how I read it.

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

I've been reading this thread for quite a while but never really felt the need to post. But now...I think I need to post because it will be cathartic.

Friday morning (5/18), two of my very close friends died in a car accident. I have been a mess since I found out (I was on the phone with one of my friend's brothers when the police confirmed that my two friends were deceased). I worked with both of these friends, and our workplace brought in a counselor on Friday afternoon to be there for any of us to talk to if we needed it. A friend and I went in to talk with him at the same time (the two that have passed were the other half of our "four musketeers" that were always together). He asked us both what we believe happens after death. Being a Christian minister, I think I rather threw him for a loop when I told him my beliefs, but he took it all in stride and helped me to see that there is hope in my beliefs.

So now...I want to share this. I believe my friends are still out there...their souls are still with us even if their bodies aren't. Someday, they will be reborn into new bodies to touch more lives as they have touched mine. Or maybe they will have fulfilled their purpose or reached their full potential, and their souls will merge with the lifeforce that is a part of everything, the lifeforce that I view as Goddess/God, or whichever you prefer.

I have always believed this, and now, it does bring me comfort to realize my friends are still with me, even if I can't necessarily see them, hug them, or talk directly with them. I can't explain why I believe this, but it is what feels natural and right for me. I know this isn't the most popular belief, but I hope you will all respect my right to believe this and my need to share it.

I know my friends would/do respect my beliefs, even if they don't agree, and that's why they will always be so special to me.

[Fljotsdale]

CyberPixie, I just don't know what to say. My heart goes out to you and to the families of your friends. I am so sorry you are in distress. I am so sorry for your loss.
And no, there is no way I will show any disrespect for your belief - it must be a great comfort for you to feel they are still with you. I would like to believe it too.
I lost my brother, my father and my mother within a 15mth period, so I have some small idea of what you must be feeling now - but to lose close friends, suddenly and unexpectedly, in their youth, is particularly shocking.
Hugs, CyberPixie.

Fljotsdale

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by John D Harris: I question your atheism. After reading your post on this subject (this and other posts) IMHO I would say that you are disatisfied with orginized religon not God, something I understand and can agree with.

John D, don't make the mistake of thinking that a knowledge of the bible means I am not an Atheist. And it is not organised religion as such that I am dissatisfied with (though I AM!!), it is the god I find in the bible that I detest. And I mean that word. Detest. I do not think ANY of the gods in ANY of the religions are anything other than reflections of human IDEAS of god. If you have read my other posts as you mention, you will know my opinions on that, lol!
And I am NOT getting at Jesus here. As I have said before, I LIKE the guy. He is NOTHING like the biblical (or any other) god. He was not vengeful, nor spiteful, nor unreasonable, nor demanding - even though he was forceful and honest in his dealings with people (which I deeply respect). But I do not consider Jesus to be god. He was much better than any god humanity has ever seen fit to worship. I would like to have known him.
Part of me would like to believe there IS something 'out there' that deserves the same respect I have for Jesus. But not to worship. No way. Any god that demands worship isn't worth it. Worship is demeaning.(IMHO) Any god that wants my respect has to respect humanity, too, not demand our worship and wreak vengeance on us if we don't comply, like the bible god does.
Sorry if I offend anyone, but I get pretty hot under the collar when I think of what the bible record says of god's dealings with both his 'own' people and with 'foreigners'.

Fljotsdale