Party help

[Gimli]

Hey - I recently picked up the "Collection" edition for $9.99 and installed IWD, HoW, and ToLM (plus some of the ease of use mods that deal with inventory). I am looking to make a party I'll be happy enough with to take through the whole game at Core level of difficulty. I want them to be strong and well-rounded enough to get through without feeling gimped, but also want to have a strong RP feel so that I'll enjoy playing them.

So far I have three characters I am pretty set on having, they are:

Dwarf Fighter -> Axes (melee and thrown)
Human Paladin -> Great Sword, Bow
Halfling Fighter/Thief -> Dagger/Club, Crossbow

For the remaining 3 characters, I want one to be mage-esque and one to be cleric-esque. I am really torn over how to make them though considering the multi-class and dual-class possibilities. I want at least one character to have some Ranger levels for the Tracking and for RP purposes, so I am thinking of something like either:

Human Ranger->Cleric (what level should I switch over at?)
or
1/2 Elf Ranger/Cleric

Either way I'd go with Maces/Sling.

Then for the Mage I have been leaning towards an Elven Fighter/Mage who would be a sniper-type and would hang out in the back casting spells as well as using a bow (and probably large swords if melee called). I have a few questions though about such a character. Can they cast spells while using a shield and/or helmet? Is there any elven-chain type armor they can cast while wearing in this game? Am I going to really regret not having a better melee type devoted to large swords? I know a dual class Fighter->Mage would probably be a more powerful character but I don't feel too comfortable with that choice from a RP perspective.

For the 6th character I am still very much spinning my wheels. Some possibilities I've thought of were:

1/2 Elf Cleric/Mage - to be a field medic and use most of his mage spells in a buffing sense before combats, then put on armor. How are cleric/mages in this game? This guy would probably go flail/sling.

Elf Fighter - to really have an awesome sniper and someone to use the large swords. Maybe also an Elf Ranger, which could change the Cleric/Ranger type above to a Cleric/Fighter.

Or some kind of Druid for the summoning possibilities - I wouldn't mind a Human who duals from Fighter to Druid for this and think it might be a pretty powerful choice. Would it be better to go for large swords (ie scimitars) or staves here?

I'm totally open to suggestions to change the last three characters too - I just don't really like Bards too much from a RP point of view so that's about the only class I don't want to take.

Also in general, if I want to use shields with some of the characters, will it make me switch into their inventory like IWDII does to switch to ranged weapons? Thanks in advance for your insights!

[NobleNick]

Gimli,

Congratulations on your purchase!

No Bard, eh? Well I think you are screwing yourself; since your Fighter-heavy party is just SCREAMing for one. But, respecting your RP decision and taking that as a ground rule...

One thing you will be VERY happy for in the expansions, even if you were to take a Bard, is lots of Cleric power. Without a Bard this is even much more important to consider. IIRC, I have a Cleric[17]/Fighter and a Ranger[13]/Cleric in my current party, and they both are excellent front row fighters. However, I really do wish I'd done it the other way (Fighter[13]/Cleric and Cleric[??]/Ranger); so that my F/C would have gotten the full benefit of the extra HP that a high-CON Fighter gets in the first 10 levels.

That leaves only one slot, which must satisfy your "mage-esque" requirement. Your idea of complementing your Mage with bow skills is an excellent one. IF you can quell your RP qualms just a bit, you would do well with a DC Fighter/Mage. You can max out 3 PP in bows, also stack 3-5 PP in another weapon (depending on where you want to DC), and the high HP and extra 1/2 ApR is just a bonus.

Can they cast spells while using a shield and/or helmet? Is there any elven-chain type armor they can cast while wearing in this game? Am I going to really regret not having a better melee type devoted to large swords?

Yes, the F/M needs to take off his armor and, IIRC, shield and helmet before casting a spell. The helmet should not be a problem, because he will probably be wearing a hood to enhance spellcasting. I **think** that leather armor can stay on; AND there is a very nice piece of elven-chain type armor that a caster can wear, that becomes (randomly) available in the mid-game. Let me know if you want me to be more specific.

The absence of large sword is not, in general and of itself, a concern. However, I highly, HIGHLY, HIGHLY recommend that your Paladin specialize in long (a.k.a. large?) sword; and that your party adventure all the way through to the late-game in IWD before taking on the expanisons. I can tell you why/where/what/etc. if you don't mind a minor spoiler.

Given all this, one possibility is:

Dwarf Fighter -> Axes (melee and thrown)
Human Paladin -> long Sword, Bow
Halfling Fighter/Thief -> Dagger/Club, Crossbow
DC Fighter[13]/Cleric -> Mace, Sling
DC Cleric[X]/Ranger -> Flail, Sling
DC Fighter[9]/Mage -> (edged weapon of your choice), bow

For your Cleric/Ranger, I would pick X such that your Fighter[13]/Cleric has a chance to DC and get some respectable Cleric skills before DCing your C/R out of Cleric. Another consideration is to make sure your your C/R can at least perform 1 "Raise Dead" before DCing him; but this should already be covered if you follow the instructions in the first sentence of this paragraph. I DCed my Cleric at clvl 17, and didn't feel like I waited too long. Don't worry about the high DC levels if you are doing all the expansions: There is plenty of expo to go around, even for a 6 member party on normal/core difficulty.

Another viable possibility for your final three, that might appeal more to your RP tastes; and, as a bonus, gets some Druid skills into your party:

DC Fighter[13]/Cleric -> Mace, Sling
DC Fighter[X]/Druid -> Scimitar, Sling
Gnome Cleric/Illusionist -> Flail, sling
--OR-- Elf Cleric/Mage -> Flail, sling

Yes the F/D is nice: Far superior, IMHO, than the straight Druid. For your F/D, pick [X] between 9 and 13, inclusive. I have a Fighter[10]/Druid[18] in my TotLM party that I now wish I had DCed at Fighter[13].

The F/C could be made into a Ranger/Cleric or Cleric/Ranger. I really haven't studied up on the sweet spots to DC a Ranger, but would guess that Ranger[12] would be in the ball park of a good balance of having REAL Ranger skills and giving your Cleric time to develop.

Haven't done IWD2. You can use slings while wielding a shield. To use a bow, the shield must go back into inventory.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!

[Gimli]

Thanks alot for the reply Nick. I have been reading good things about Bards amping melee types here, but personally I've never had much fun with them in CPRGs (although looking at your sig I can see where you'd take exception to that, lol). So yeah, even if it will mean not having the ultimate power-type party I will skip over Bards - but totally understand if you or anyone else loves them [img]smile.gif[/img]

Definitely I will switch over the Paladin to use large swords instead of great swords now, thanks for the tip (and for giving all of your tips without any too-specific spoilers).

As for the elven chain type of armor, all I would ask specifically about it is whether or not only elves can use it - I am pretty sure now I want to take a Cleric/Mage now but I think only half-elves can take that combo. Also how likely is it for that elven chain to appear?

I am thinking if a half-elf can use the elven chain, I have 4 party members set:

1) Dwarf Fighter (Axe/Axe)
2) Human Paladin (L Sword/Bow)
3) Halfling Fighter/Thief (Dagger/Club/Crossbow)
4) Half-Elf Cleric/Mage (Flail/Mace/Sling)

Now for the last 2 I do think having a Druid would be nice, and I wouldn't mind at all having a "Barbarian Shaman" type of Druid who I start off as a Fighter and then DC over to Druid, so he'd be something like:

5) Human Fighter[9]->Druid[X] (Scimitar/Staff/Sling)

What benefits would I get from waiting until 13th as a Fighter instead of changing over at 13th? More WP slots and some HP? I guess having not played this game before I am a little anxious to get each character "set" into their role early on, but I'm flexible with this guy if the extra Fighter levels will really help him. Also, what do I need stat-wise to dual with way, just an 18 in STR and WIS?

So now I would basically have 3 cleric-y types already, the Paladin, the Cleric/Mage and the Fighter->Druid, so I am hesitant to add another Cleric hybrid into the mix, and also to go with another DC-type.

I was thinking off adding a pure Elven Ranger, which at higher levels and with the HoW rules would actually be a decent caster as well. This would give me the Tracking skill from the get-go for hints on every map, and while he wouldn't be a melee-machine, an Elf with 2 ticks in Bows is basically +4/+2, where a Human with 3 is +3/+3, so he'd be about as good a sniper as I could get (short of a pure Elven Fighter). He could also use great swords to make life easier switching back and forth between the bow and melee and cover that type of weapon instead of the Paladin. So possibly #6 is:

Elf Ranger (G Sword/Bow)

I've read so much about distance weapons owning in this game too and there being alot of good bows, so I have a real itch to somehow put a bow into an elf's hands [img]smile.gif[/img] And while I know the Ranger would not be as strong in cleric spells as a DC Fighter->Cleric, I think he'd hold his own (of course this is purely from looking at the manuals and not having played yet). RP-wise it sits with me better as well.

I am not going to roll them up until Thursday so I'm still very open to more ideas if anyone cares to contribute!

[Roboghost]

I'm a party nut...well...RPGs too!

My current [playing in INSANE mode all the way through]:

Basic goals to start are:
All races, 2 tanks (skipping the Paladin--just wanted 2 plain fighters), 1 thief/archer, 1 archmage, 2 priests (no bards...despite all the good...they still bug me--and I hate trying to roll for one).

1) Human Fighter (my human/a +4 shield/sword of action +4)
2) Dwarf Fighter (resistances/Axe/17 DEX sucks though)
3) Half-Elf Fighter/Druid (plain Druid can't armor-up much, so...)
4) Gnome Cleric (resistances/+3 helm/17 WIS stinks, but will boost to 19 without penalty at end of IWD--a certain ring helps here too)
5) Halfling Fighter/Thief (resistances/bows/scout/thief...a little slow at start with the thief skills, but she eventually gets there)
6) Elf Mage (my elf/hard to charm/19 DEX...making them a bit better with the sling)

Well, the long drive home beckons.

[NobleNick]

Gimli,

Thanks alot for the reply Nick. I have been reading good things about Bards amping melee types here, but personally I've never had much fun with them in CPRGs (although looking at your sig I can see where you'd take exception to that, lol). So yeah, even if it will mean not having the ultimate power-type party I will skip over Bards - but totally understand if you or anyone else loves them.

You are welcome. I am a power gamer at heart; but try to keep in mind that for some, lots of the enjoyment comes from having a less-than-uber party that fits an RP theme. Just wanted to make clear that Bards are excellent characters in IWD, and **ONLY IF** HoW is installed. So if you are avoiding them for RP reasons, O.K. But if you are avoiding them because they sucked in other CRPGs, you are making a mistake. 'nuff said.

As for the elven chain type of armor, all I would ask specifically about it is whether or not only elves can use it - I am pretty sure now I want to take a Cleric/Mage now but I think only half-elves can take that combo. Also how likely is it for that elven chain to appear?

I honestly forget whether my Gnome Thief/Illusionist or my H-elf Bard is wearing this at the moment; but I would be extremely surprised if there were any race restrictions on the elven chain mail.

I do not think Cleric/Mage MC is restricted to Half-elves. However, If you want to MC a Specialist Mage there are some restrictions. IIRC, only a Gnome can MC the Specialist, and only an Illusionist at that. So, for MC, a Gnome Cleric/Illusionist would work, as well as your H-elf (or any other non-human race) Cleric/Mage.

It should be either a 1-in-2 or a 1-in-3 shot on each attempt to get the chain mail. The best advice I can give you, here, is advice that is generally helpful throughout the game: Save often and to different game names. In addition to saving to distinct game names just before and after important events (like tough battles); always save your game just before entering a new area (where you have to wait for the "LOADING..." message), and save to a **NEW** game name on the new area as soon as possible before continuing play. The reason is that IWD decides what the random treasures are in the entire level, the first time you enter the level. So, to re-randomize (if you didn't get the treasure you wanted) you need to re-start from a point in the game before you first entered the level.

...I do think having a Druid would be nice, and I wouldn't mind at all having a "Barbarian Shaman" type of Druid who I start off as a Fighter and then DC over to Druid... What benefits would I get from waiting until 13th as a Fighter instead of changing over at 13th? More WP slots and some HP? ... I guess having not played this game before I am a little anxious to get each character "set" into their role early on, but I'm flexible with this guy if the extra Fighter levels will really help him.

I think you meant changing over at 13 versus 9. . . O.K., as I am sure you know, the WP (actually "Proficiency Points" or "PP") stack to give the Fighter THAC0 bonuses, damage bonuses AND extra Attacks per Round (ApR). When the Fighter starts, he gets 4 PP that he can stack up to 2 high in 2 weapons. (Or he could spread them around over up to 4 weapons; but, since stacking is VERY powerful, spreading points is an extremely bad choice unless you are doing it for RP reasons). At levels 3, 6, 9, 12, etc. the Fighter gains another PP which he can continue stacking as high as 3 in a ranged weapon and as high as 5 in other melee weapons. So, a character DCed at Fighter[9] has a total of 7PP which can be stacked as a very respectable 3 PP in bows and 4 PP in, say, axe. The stacked PP give an extra 1/2 ApR in bow and in axe; and the Fighter picked up ANOTHER 1/2 ApR in all weapons when he hit clvl 7. So, clvl 9 IS a sweet spot for dualing a Fighter over, because it is relatively cheap in expo and provides good benefit.

Now, what is gained by waiting til clvl 13? At clvl 12 the Fighter gains another PP which he can stack to give 5 PP in axe. In addition to other benefits, this gives him, IIRC, another FULL ApR, for a total of 1.5 bonus ApR from stacked PP! At clvl 13, he gets yet ANOTHER 1/2 ApR for all weapons; plus, he gets bonuses to his saving throws, which are important in the later game. Even all this is not enough, if you are playing IWD, only, since your character needs to gain clvl 14 in the new class before you regain Fighter skills, and the game might be over before then. But for IWD/HoW (or even IWD, only, on HoF mode) clvl 13 is cheap; and you will have plenty of time to enjoy your regained Fighter skill set.

Also, what do I need stat-wise to dual with way, just an 18 in STR and WIS?

I anticipated your question, and have resurrected an old thread discussing how to roll a DC F/D. It is not a trivial task to get it right, and there is a huge gap between what you need to do to be able to perform the DC and what will yield a character that is fun and will not be a liability in the late game. I will either edit this post to give a link or full discussion, or will stick it in a separate post. Until then, the short story is that you need STR 15+, WIS 17+ and CHA 17+ to do the DC; but you also need high scores in everything except INT in order to have a viable and enjoyable character. High DEX and CON scores are especially important to making this character what you would expect, from an RP stance (a good Fighter AND a good Druid), as well as what you want, from a power gamer's stance (a Druid who can tank). We are talking power gaming, here: I needed to re-roll for probably an hour to get the roll of 90 that I felt I could live with.

EDIT: Here is the culmination of lots of head scratching concerning the DC Fighter/Druid, excepted from a thread in this forum:

------------------------ BEGIN EXCERPT --------------------------

...reasonable (what I would consider the MINIMUM ACCEPTABLE) DC Fighter->Druid stats are:

STR = 15
DEX = 18
CON = 18
INT = 3
WIS = 17
CHA = 17
TOTAL = 88

An 88 total is a power roll. Expect to roll for at least a half hour to get this. For a power roll over 88, allocate the points as follows:

STR = 15 (plus the 89th, 90th, and 91st points)
DEX = 18
CON = 18
INT = 3 (plus the 94th and any other extra points)
WIS = 17 (plus the 92nd point)
CHA = 17 (plus the 93rd point)

If you want the extra Druid spell, top out WIS first, before moving on to STR.

And, of course, you must align your Fighter as a True Neutral Human.

------------------------- END EXCERPT ---------------------------

I was thinking of adding a pure Elven Ranger... I've read so much about distance weapons owning in this game...

Yes, this is yet another way that IWD/HoW differs from other CRPGs: Ranged weapons rule; and a well equipped party can often take out even tough opponents before they can close to melee. An Elven Ranger would certainly do O.K., and is an excellent character from an RP stance; though I think a DC Cleric/Ranger would be an even better choice from a power gamer's point of view: I have a Ranger/Cleric and Cleric/Fighter, whos' unbuffed ACs are -17 and -21. (Ermmm, maybe that is with the Bard's song playing...) Often, in the expansions, a Cleric will get stunned or go down; and it is SO nice to have a Cleric buddy to get him back on his feet. Also, something to remember when you put your Ranger in danger, is that the "Raise Dead" spell does not work on Elves. (IIRC, though, the "Resurrection" spell does.)

Hope this helps.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!

[ 09-08-2004, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

[Aerich]

hey Gimli,

I've been without internet access for a few days, so I only just saw your question. I'll address your original question re: party composition.

So you want:
1 - Paladin
2 - Dwarf Fighter
3 - Halfling Fighter/Thief
4 - Half-elf Cleric/Mage

A good nucleus here. The dual-class F/D is a good addition - I would heartily recommend it. I'm nearly as big a fan of druids as NobleNick is of bards. Druids take a lot of stress off of clerics (healing) and mages (spells). Their spells are also well suited to weaken and hinder enemies for your fighters to pound.

As it will be your first time through, I would recommend dualing at lvl 9 - even though you end up with a weaker tank, it will still make a very adequate grunt. And on the other side of the ledger, a fighter that duals at lvl 13 takes a LONG time to regain fighter skills. Also, you will want to have some time to get familiar with the druid spells. They are so good that I'm not sure I would have the patience to wait for lvl 13 before dualing. Especially on Core difficulty.

Adding in an elf ranger is fine, too. That will take the ranged role from the paladin, and give you a specialist in that area. And a part-time tank, as well. I'm a little uncomfortable about taking Great Sword instead of Long sword, both from an RP perspective and from a game perspective. Elves get a +1 with LS, but not with GS. You can give GS to the paladin in the beginning, and have enough slots to give him specialization in LS before you get the uber weapon. Here's a tip for the ranger - take some form of UNDEAD as your racial enemy.

[NobleNick]

Here's a tip for the ranger - take some form of UNDEAD as your racial enemy.

Excellent advice, Aerich.

Gimli, I guess I could half-heartedly also agree with Aerich on the F/D. A F/D DCed at F[13] *WILL* be significantly better than if DCed at F[9]. (With better saving throws, better THAC0, better damage and an EXTRA 1.5 ApR, how could he not be?!?) However, the strongest criticism I have of my otherwise superb DC F[10]/D[18] is that he bleeds a lot when I try to use him as a tank. This is directly related to his less than stellar AC, which I could have corrected by maximizing DEX during the roll.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!

[Gimli]

Very good stuff, thanks again!! RL has kept me from creating them today (was supposed to be able to work from home today, which did happen, but only after regular hours in the office, it was a nightmare) and may delay me all weekend But on the bright side it gives me more time to think about the party.

I definitely would have missed the 17 CHA requirement for the F->D (that's going to be a tough one to roll up). I am going to dual him at 9th and go for a high Dex and hope at Core level he'll be a passable tank.

For the ranger I will go with large swords, I agree it is better from a RP point of view - also if he doesn't use a shield which I don't want to switch to the bow easily anyway, he will get the extra 1/2 attack as well as the elf bonus. I think the way "dual wield" works is weird tho, wish you could just actually use 2 weapons. I'll start the Paladin off with great swords and build his large swords as he levels up.

One other concern I just thought of - considering my lineup is looking pretty set now, are there any alignments I might want to avoid for the ranger, fighter, fighter/thief and cleric/mage? I have seen some posts where people lament the alignment they chose because they can't use certan magic items. The Paladin and F->D are hard-coded so there's no choice to make there, but for the other 4 I wanted to make sure I don't choose anything I'll regret later.

[Aerich]

I can't think of any specific "must-have" awesome item off the top of my head that is alignment-restricted, aside from the paladin's sword. Certainly nothing that can't be substituted for. It's usually weapons or armor.

So many of the items are random, and a well-balanced party will have plenty of good loot to choose from - towards the end of the game you will have too much. I think people bemoan their alignments because they missed the opportunity to use a "cool" item, not because it offers that much advantage in the game over another item.

Just on general principles, you may wish to make either the fighter or the fighter/thief a neutral or evil character. These are the only two where I think you have some latitude to choose (Paladin is set, F/D is set, Ranger is partially set, and good C/Ms have the advantage, as shown below). Maybe the F/T; there's some poisonous weapons available, and it would seem strange RP-wise to have good characters using poison weapons all the time.

I would definitely make the C/M good. Evil clerics lack the greater healing spells (Cure Critical Wounds and Heal, possibly also Raise Dead and Resurrection), and I believe neutral clerics cannot access the "Shield of Lathander" spells.

Your ranger has to be good (class requirement) and I don't think lawful, neutral, and chaotic are very important, except for RP.

[SpongeLikeCow]

There is an excellent shield early in the game that can't be used by Lawful. Thats all I remember as far as equipment restrictions go.

Fighter/Mages and Cleric/Mages can cast with helmets and shields on.

As for Gimli's party, if you cant decide on a final character you cant go wrong with another cleric/mage, or a gnomish cleric/illusionist.