East vs West - more fuel to the fire

[Memnoch]

Originally posted by Aelia Jusa: What do you mean by *honest*? Does that mean if I say that I think he's wrong not to mention irresponsible for what he's said you won't believe me?

Hi Aelia. Last time I checked the dictionary, "honest" meant telling the truth. I don't think there's anything in the definition that involves belief or disbelief of any statement, honest or otherwise.

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[Djinn Raffo]

Originally posted by Memnoch: The reason I posted this was because I was curious as to how some of us might react to this perspective. Mr Berlusconi's comments are in the same vein as that of Pope Urban V1 (?) who called for a Great Crusade to free the Holy City of Jerusalem from the grip of the Muslims at the close of the first millenium. They are certainly politically incorrect. But let's take a good long look at the darkest corner of our souls and ask ourselves if there's even a tiny little part of us that agrees with him. As long as that spark of Bhaal essence is in our soul we will never have true peace on earth, IMHO.

I think i know what your getting at Memnoch...but for me that would be just to...un-optimistic??? Deep down within do i think that the central asia is populated by a bunch of barbarians??? No. I acknowledge that we in the west are afforded luxuries of life not seen everywhere else...I refuse to believe that this makes us superior or more intelligent or more virtuos.

This quote from the article:

He had earlier told Italian journalists: "We should be conscious of the superiority of our civilisation, which consists of a value system that has given people widespread prosperity in those countries that embrace it, and guarantees respect for human rights and religion." As if to rub salt in the wound, he added: "This respect certainly does not exist in the Islamic countries."

This is called stereotyping. It is an uneducated and grossly indecent comment to make IMHO. The Taliban or the terrorists are not the rule of Islam. They are the exception. Just like the Spanish Inquisition and Jerry Falwell are not the rule of all christianity.

For this...situation...to be labelled a Crusade plays into the oppositions hands. That would make this encounter Western idealism vs. Islam. That is not what this encounter is.

Note: I tried to use ambiguous words like encounter and opposition and situation on purpose.

[Moiraine]

I heard on the French radio today people very concerned about the fact that, as the current Italy leader, Berlusconi could one day be the current speaker for Europe, and so appear to say his lunatic thoughts on behalf of all Europe, which would be far worse than it actually is ...


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The world is my oyster !

[WOLFGIR]

Well I think that under alot of rocks in western, east, south and northern countries.. that is all over the world of all colors, all nations, all ethinc groups, all ideaologies and everything.. We will find little creeoy persons with ideas that are pretty hateful and stupid.

I also think that Berlusconi is one big part creep. And that is MY opinion. I don´t call the followers of him stupid, they might find something I´m not aware of good or something.

So, well, sort out the bad apples and make a nice applepie of the rest. A good smell is more attractive than a foul one..

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Be vevvy qwiet..I´m hunting wabbits...
Wolfgirs lair
once-upon-a-paper

[Link]

Berlusconi.... Mussolini????

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I am committed to restore your faith in extreme violence...

Link
Overlord Executioner, Slayer of Fluffed Beings
Member of Clan HADB
Supreme Warrior of Myst
Official Entertainer in Cloudy's Cafe

[Larry_OHF]

My honest response to this is that I do not know if I really understood the statement.
Maybe I need it simplified a little.

But I thought that we were the enemy to Bin Laden only because we were friends with his enemy...

Maybe I misunderstood that statement as well...sorry, it is in the early hours of the morning for me...I am still sleepy.

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Member of the OHF and Diamond Ranger of the ALSB (secretarial position)
Father of the wicked but cute child known as MaryBeth

Padre de una niña bien traviosa pero guapa
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Aisukuríimu ga tabetái desu.

That is truly disturbing. this individual is apparently bent on a path with fascistic diretion. I don't agree at all with his view of East vs. West either theologically or politically and most definitely not anthropologically.
This kind of situation is what reinforces my deep distress at the human condition.


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[Moridin]

are attacks not only on the United States but on our civilisation, of which we are proud bearers, conscious of the supremacy of our civilisation

We should be conscious of the superiority of our civilisation, which consists of a value system that has given people widespread prosperity in those countries that embrace it, and guarantees respect for human rights and religion." As if to rub salt in the wound, he added: "This respect certainly does not exist in the Islamic countries

He is falsely confusing prosperous civilization with christianity...saying that one is not possible without the other. However, how does he explain a country like China or the former Soviet Union.

He is simply a Christian Bigot, who has found someone to rant about. It is nothing more than a ploy to strengthen his position (like Epona said) with the extreme right-wing on the Italian population.

People like this make me sick and are no better than the terrorists...a bigot is a bigot...muslim hating christian or christian hating muslim both are a$$es in my book!

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Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

[Zbyszek]

Originally posted by Absynthe: That is truly disturbing. this individual is apparently bent on a path with fascistic diretion. I don't agree at all with his view of East vs. West either theologically or politically and most definitely not anthropologically. This kind of situation is what reinforces my deep distress at the human condition.

Officially he is right winged. I dont believe you can call somebody a fascist only because he calls for freedom of religion, voice and human rights, but maybe you call anybody fascist just because you dont agree with him - it is up to you - I grant you that freedom. Personally I piss on so called human rigths. There is no such think like human rights, democracy and so on in our world. Guys who have money, power - they set everything. There is only particular interes ruling in the world.
US was fighting Soviet Union so they trained and equipped muslims in Afghanistan. In mid 90s US wanted to buid oil pipe from Azerbejan they didnt want to cross Russia nor Iran (political reasons) so they talked with Talibans about it. And Afghanistan said OK - if you will back up Albanians in Europe. It was great offensive in media that Albanians are good and Serbs are bad. Finally US started war with Serbia. Why? for Albanians - for sure not. (War in Persia Gulf was not to free Kuweit and give people in Kuwait freedom - there was no freedom in Kuwait before and there is no now - it was purly economical and political bussines - oil). US bombing gave Serbians "right" to drive out Albanians - civilans. US bombed Serb civilians. Jaheira could say that balance has been hold . Now Serb civilians has been driven out of Kosovo and international forces are afraid to do anything with armed Albanians in Kosovo. They smuggle guns, drugs. Preparing for another war - building Great Albania. And where are human rights? One almost fascism has been changed for another.

Pakistan all the time is training Talibans and muslim terrorist in Kashmir (northern India) and who cares? nobody , because Pakistan is our ally (like bin Laden 10 year ago). Muslims kills Christians in Nigeria, and who cares? China held Tibet over half of century - has anybody done anything? Will it change - NO.

I am not saying that western point of view is better so I dont agree with Berlusconi. Each one has different one. But some/many try to force his own on all around. Muslims: sometimes we call them fighters for freedom becuse thay oppose Russia and next week they are just terrorists. US is pressing his own point of view, but Russia or China have different. Muslims have different.
The true is that nobody likes strangers, we are all xenophobes. I can bet that you never really cared for Albanians nor Serbs civilians - they live so far , maybe let them kill themselves. You know about themn just becuse it was big amount of media noise about them. Have you heard/thougth about Nigeria? About Muslims in Philipines - they fight for freedom, they want to have muslim country there (OK they kidnapped some tourists so they are well known now). But have you heard about muslims in northern China? Do you care Christians in Sudan?

But it comes time to choose we or they? We always say we. We dont want people from China/Mexico (US), we dont want muslim refugees from Afghanistan (Austalia). I also dont want them. If the time comes americans will say we choose american point of view, arabs choose arabs. All Paladins are fascists - they have sworn to defend their ideology, to fight with their enemies without mercy without doubts. Sometimes we just call them Dark Paladins because they are not on our side. We are all fascists. I dont want Amarican poit of view. i dont like muslim or russian one. I have my own point of view which I would like to force all over the world - I am fascisc.

PS. If you are able to tell people that whey have to believe in, you rule. If you have money, press, TV - you force your point of view to many. You are GREAT fascist.

[AngelofDeath]

Memnoch, How's it going? Do you have the whole interview, or news article? It seems that these sentences, and or terms are taken out of context. As it is done here in America, sentences are taken out of context, by the liberal media, to get people in a frenzy.

I'm not saying this nutnic is right, but there has to be more to the whole interview/statement from this guy. I'm not familiar with European polotics, so I really can not comment on that as a whole.

I think that, as a whole western technology, is more advanced than that of most of the East, except for some countries. So in that respect, yes we are superior, to say the Afghani's in the respect of technology. I do not relate that perse to religous beliefs, or the like, but who knows.

In closing, I ask were those statements taken out of context? yes, I think that western Civilization is far superior to eastern Civilization, and zbyszek is correct in saying "But it comes time to choose we or they? We always say we. We dont want people from China/Mexico (US), we dont want muslim refugees from Afghanistan (Austalia). I also dont want them. If the time comes americans will say we choose american point of view, arabs choose arabs. All Paladins are fascists - they have sworn to defend their ideology, to fight with their enemies without mercy without doubts"


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[This message has been edited by AngelofDeath (edited 09-28-2001).]