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Well, if such thing like a Tommy Gun exist in BGII realm, I am sure the berserker can specialize in range weapon. But I am pretty sure your fighter/thief can specialize in bow.

Nope, beserkers can't use range weapons at all. They have to have some penalty after all.
I had a very good experience with a fighter gnome illusionist in IWD (though they had a gnome specific helm in that game), so I think that would be successful, at least for keeping the party strong while the others have just dual-classed. The reason they go up to the frontline is because they will have the same stats as a human (18/91+ str, 18 dex, 18 con if you play like me) and can cast mirror image/blur all the time, which makes them excellent at melee. With stoneskin up they will not take any damage.
I would make your main character one of the mages, definitely, so that you can make use of the familiar, which is pretty useful for boosting hp. As your mage most likely has some fighter component you can get the fighter stronghold as well.
I don't like druids much either. Their spells aren't very useful, insect swarm is slow to cast and can be resisted by those with magic resistance, a master using Thuigans bow can have the same effect, ironskin is really the only thing good spell they have besides that (I don't count summoning elementals, because they move so slowly and always fall behind the party). Granted, a fighter-druid who specialized in useful things like quarterstaves, spears and slings might not be too bad.

el kalykus--why do you have two characters who are masters of katana, no one using long swords, and why is your fighter-mage going to be using staves instead of two handed swords? Are your fighters going to take turns holding the celestial fury? Because the next katana (+2, -3 vs. slash weapons) ranks up there with scimitars and ninja tos. (Oh wait, I see that your kensai will hold the +2, +4 spells, but I don't really care for that sword, it means you can't swap out weapons or you lose the spells) I would make your gnome mage neutral or evil so that you can use the best or second best two-handed sword in the game (the Soul Reaver).

[el_kalkylus]

No, I don't think I will be making a gnomish fighter/thief. It is probably good in the beginning and in the middle game, but the kensai/mage will grow much stronger.

G.W, I see your point. I should have put the slots in two handed weapon style instead of single weapon style, and let the kensai/mage dualwield the Dak'kon's Zerth blade and a katana +2. This way, I don't have to change weapons, and can have the 4 extra spell slots.
I chose the berserker to specialize in quarter staff, because it is a crushing weapon and that I intend to get the staff of magi, because someone's gotta use it. It is a pity I can't have anyone using a two handed sword. Maybe my berserker should have the proficiency points in two handed sword in the beginning, and when he duals to a mage, I put the rest of the points in quarterstaff. I will have to use shadowkeeper once again.

Hi el_kalkylus,

Those two parties are designed to not engage in melee except as a last resort. So to me the Avenger is a spellcaster ONLY. As to Druids being worse than Ranger/Clerics, have you seen how slowly a R/C levels up? Druids will be level 12 at 300 kXP, while single class Clerics will be level 12 at 900 kXP. That means that your spells come six times earler for a druid than a multi-class cleric.

IMO Druids are basically summoners. Summon Animals II rocks, and Fire Elementals rule. They require +2 or better weapons to hit, and very few undead hit as even +1 weapons. (Exceptions that will quickly kill a fire elemental: vampires, wraiths, ghoul lords, demiliches. That's right, I've taken out liches with just two fire elementals -- chaotic commanded and death warded, but still!)

A fire elemental will go through mummies, shadows, shadow fiends, skeletal warriors (!), ghouls, ghasts, bone golems (!!!) and of course zombies and skeletons without a scratch. If you're playing on Insane, you will find not being hit by these foes very convenient The other thing druids are good for is, as you mentioned, Insect Swarm. Very few humanoid mages will be able to resist this. Call lightning is nice, but seldom useful.

That's where the Avenger part comes in: an Avanger is a druid (with the nice fire elementals etc.) who can act as a back-up mage or back-up cleric.

If you don't like the Avenger, consider the Totemic Druid. This guy does not ever change shape, but gets to summon "spirit animals" (extra bonus cannon fodder) which can't be hit by normal weapons. They don't hit as magical weapons, so aren't effective against the undead like fire elementals are, but they do kick butt against normal monsters (animals, yuan-ti, slaver guards, etc.). Again, "weapon ineffective" wins against "2x monster damage" every time. Your best defense is being behind something untouchable.

IMHO clerics are overrated. Undead turning is annoying -- if you don't destroy the buggers, they run away, and your party either gets fragmented chasing them or you lose them and their XP. The only other thing Clerics have over Druids is raising the dead, but Rods of Resurrection are cheap (and one is available somewhere for free).


Now on to Bounty Hunters: their "special" traps are indeed special because they sometimes do some extra little magic thing, but that's not the real reason that BHs rock. The really special thing about their "special" snares is that you can "throw" them -- as in, you don't have to be standing where you want the trap to be, you just have to be able to see the area. This means that you can use your traps like mages often use their fireballs: to kill stuff just off the visible screen. Unlike fireballs, this won't hurt any neutrals or friendlies in the area, so you can send a fire elemental around a corner and then throw traps at whatever it's fighting. You can also throw traps near people who you just know are going to be hostile if they see you (a certain dragon and mage come to mind). I don't play with BHs any more, as I find they make my game too easy, but were I to try to play all the way through on Insane, their trick would be invaluable.

Regarding taking Jan or Edwin instead of one of the characters I described: YES! In my opinion it's far better to use the supplied characters. More interactions, side quests, funny stuff, etc.. If you're open to that, I'd say your party should be:
YOU: gnome fighter/illusionist, neutral alignment
2-handed sword ++
2-handed style +
mace ++
flail +

Rest of party: Jaheira, Edwin and Jan or Imoen. Two fighters with Iron/Stoneskin, one with Mirror Image. Four summoners of varying degree: Jaheira will summon the best stuff, but Edwin can summon an awful lot of good stuff. No one can be backstabbed if you remember to keep your skins up, so the relatively lame HPs of this party won't matter too much. Jan is great if your style includes pickpocketing; Imoen is a better mage and has much better HPs.

Anyway: ENJOY! I find 4-person parties a lot of fun. Tell us how it goes if you do go through on Insane.

Hmm... proficiencies can be frustrating. I hate the guilt associated with changing them back and forth.
I suppose one of the two katana users should dual wield. Since the fighter-thief can swap out a shortbow without losing spells, then it may be the better candidtate. I have Geedubya as specialized in long swords, katanas, master of dual wield and proficient in crossbow. (note, this is after getting the level 9 proficiency) Then Geedubya can wield the Daystar and the Celestial Fury, a potent combo. This seems to work out well for a thief who is more like a tank. If your thief prefers to use the shortbow and stay in the back, it's not the best.

[el_kalkylus]

Yes Halscion,
I also think the fire elemental is great. In my last game I noticed how useful a fire elemental can be.

I don't see why I should pick a druid-kit instead of the ranger/cleric. I know the druid get the spells faster than a cleric, but on the other hand, the ranger/cleric get ALL druid- AND cleric spells + it has good ac, hp, and THACO, so it can act as a fighter in the beginning. It doesn't take that long to get high enough xp, so that you can cast fire elementals. I am not sure, but I don't think the druid has cleric spells like blade-barrier (this is the best!!) or bolt of glory. The cleric has the spell rightious magic and can turn undead. The ranger/cleric is useful as a fighter in the beginning, and a druid/cleric/fighter later in the game. The avenger will then still just be a druid with some lame mage-spells.

(Sidenote: I used the turn undead ability a lot in my first game, but at my previous/second game I completely forgot about it, because I was playing a kensai/thief that could kill everything himself. That is why I don't think the turn undead ability is that great either.)

The bounty hunter can cast it's special traps 3-5 times a day, but when it is done, it is next to useless in combat. I prefer the backstab over any trap laying. The backstab makes it very easy, because all the powerful mages/liches will already be dead before the fight starts.

As I said before, I prefer a human kensai- or berserker/mage instead of gnomish fighter/illussionist, since I get more spells that way and a better fighter + the special ability.

I have 3 party-members that can cast stoneskin or ironskin. The fighter/thief can turn invisible by a potion, a ring or a spell if it get's too hot. This party is powerful enough to survive the beginning of the game. When they are done dualling, they will be very powerful. This party contains a mediocre thief, a cleric, a druid (almost), 4 mediocre fighters and 2 pure mages. This party should be able to handle every situation. The thief can backstab the most difficult mages, and the druid/cleric/fighter can heal the party members, fight, and cast some good druid/cleric spells. The fighter/mages will be the offensive ones, making a lot of damage to the enemy.

[el_kalkylus]

G.W, yes I want my thief to be able to shoot Tuigan bow, since he is the only one that can specialize in bows, and I think I will let my kensai/mage dualwield the Celestial fury and Dak'kon's Zerth blade. So I don't really need my fighter/thief to have points in katana. I think I will pick longsword. Just as long as he is able to backstab, I am content. The problem is that he won't be able to backstab as good as my former Kensai/thief, but this will have to due.

There is one long sword that is +2 to hit but does 2-8+4 damage. It's not the Drinker, but something else. Anyway, that does 9 points damage on average (compared with the Fury which does 8.5 points on average), so it might be a good mainhand weapon for fighting the living.

[el_kalkylus]

I have made a serious mistake. The half-orc can't do anything right. Sure, he can fight, open locks and pick pockets, but he cannot detect traps for some reason, and can only see 5 radius ahead of himself in dark areas. Even with the helm of infravision, he is only able to see his own hands. This must be the reason why he cannot find any traps. After walking around a trap about 5 min, I was finally able to detect a trap, but I have not detected any more after that. Mnuamouth has 100 in detect traps, so he should be able to detect something. Maybe it has something to do with that chant spell??

Anyway, I have thought about this, and come to the conclusion that I should choose a elf fighter/thief instead.
Elf -- +1 attack with swords and bows
+1 DEX
-1 CON
Resistant to Charm & Sleep

This is very good. The constitution is not that important anyway, since the thief will use the bow and a longsword (1 extra attack!!!). The dexterity bonus is perfect in the beginning, since I get more thief-skill points. With an elf I will have a much better fighter, than with a half-orc because of the extra attacks with bows and longsword, and a much better thief. The resistance to charm & sleep is just a bonus.

G.W, I think blade and roses is the long sword you are thinking about.

[el_kalkylus]

I got the information that elves get an extra attack with long sword and bow by Dan Simpson's guide that you get from www.gamefaqs.com. When I play an elf, it certainly doesn't SHOW that you get an extra attack with a longsword or bow, nor does it show that you get bonus to THACO, damage or to hit.

The problem with the half-orc is solved. I replaced him with an elfish fighter/thief, and he has been as good fighter as the half-orc so far (18/00 in str). I had to restart the game again, and play the usual route. I played with my 4 characters and Imoen and Jaheira through the dungeon. After I got out, I dropped Jaheira, and went to the tent to get Aerie. After that I went to the inn and killed Mencar's little group, got the full plate mail, and dropped Aerie. Then I freed Hendak, and got the Tuigan bow. After a lot of stealing, I am off to D'arnises keep with Nalia. There has been no major problem at all, except it is a little hard to just have fighters in the group, since they get hurt all the time. I remember the lesser golems in the dungeon do 45 damage per hit. Soon, my Ranger will dual to a cleric, so that someone can heal the others. Maybe I should have let the Ranger dual from the start, but I won't play the game from start again. This will probably be my last game.