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Old 09-07-2004, 06:59 AM   #21
Harkoliar
Jack Burton
 

Join Date: March 21, 2001
Location: Philippines, but now Harbor City Sydney
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the reason for the terrorist excuse for that "tradegy" is the revenge of nearly 350,000 of thier own people killed during the war in with Russia, and raping thousands of women during the war and mass murder of children. Apparently, the atrocities of Russia against Chechens wasnt given as media coverage as well. An eye for an eye is thier motto although I am totally against what they did especially with children.

I think Damdam1 is trying to say (with my own interpretation), who started it first that led to this conflict??

note: perhaps this should be in the current events forum?? my 2c on this as well.
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Old 09-07-2004, 09:34 AM   #22
Knightscape
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Join Date: October 4, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Hierophant:
(I think that) Morality is 100% subjective. These insurgents achieved their goals of gaining worldwide media coverage for their cause. They were effective. In the long run, that is all that matters.
Tell that to families of the victims. "Sorry for your grief but well the terrorists wanted to get media coverage so as you can see that is all that matters".

Now if the Russians respond by dropping a few rather large bombs on some Chechen schools, you can tell their families that "The Russians had to make a statement to detour any more similar actions by terrorists, so as you can see that is all that matters".


A means to an end is not all that matters.
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Old 09-07-2004, 10:00 AM   #23
Knightscape
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Quote:
Originally posted by SecretMaster:
I agree with Calaethis. Sure in hell wasn't right, but do whatever it takes.
I hope the Russians don't agree with your argument. Hopefull they will only go after the terrorists (avoiding civilian casualties whenever possible)and not the Chechen people as a whole.


"do whatever it takes" could get really messy for all the innocents involved.
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Old 09-07-2004, 10:11 AM   #24
Paladin2000
Fzoul Chembryl
 

Join Date: February 19, 2002
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Terrorists are trained (or brainwashed) to loose their humanity and to focus on their prime objective. They will do anything to reach their prime objective even if it means killing innocents and children.

For these people, there are no "right or wrong", it is just a matter of "success or failure". Sad to say, with the right amount of money and effort, people are being trained as mindless/emotionless killing machine.

To begin with, the training probably has a lot to do with hatred. Just imagine if you are forced to watch a tape of a massacre commited by the opposition force over and over again. Your hatred towards the opposition is so immense that you starts to loose your humanity. Once rage and hatred has taken over your humanity, just tag it with a political agenda and you are ready to do anything, literally.

What they are doing is very very wrong... but unfortunately, the people commiting the atrocities no longer see things as we do as "normal" human being.

[ 09-07-2004, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: Paladin2000 ]
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Old 09-07-2004, 06:54 PM   #25
DBear
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Join Date: April 1, 2004
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The Chechnyan terrorists are Muslims, and that is standard Muslim terrorist procedure. [img]graemlins/1pissed.gif[/img]

I hope Vlad knows what to do about it :nuke:
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Old 09-07-2004, 10:16 PM   #26
The Hierophant
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Join Date: May 10, 2002
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Age: 41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Knightscape:
Tell that to families of the victims. "Sorry for your grief but well the terrorists wanted to get media coverage so as you can see that is all that matters".

Now if the Russians respond by dropping a few rather large bombs on some Chechen schools, you can tell their families that "The Russians had to make a statement to detour any more similar actions by terrorists, so as you can see that is all that matters".


A means to an end is not all that matters.
Well, if the parents ever ask me why this happened, then sure, I'll tell them

You seem to see this in a short-term sense. As an emotional crisis, a human tragedy. That's fine, whatever works for you. I see the long-term, detached progression of events. A means to an end is all that matters. Cry and mourn all you like, it falls on deaf ears with me.
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Old 09-07-2004, 10:19 PM   #27
The Hierophant
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Join Date: May 10, 2002
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Quote:
Originally posted by DBear:
The Chechnyan terrorists are Muslims, and that is standard Muslim terrorist procedure. [img]graemlins/1pissed.gif[/img]

I hope Vlad knows what to do about it :nuke:
Haha, not a big fan of Islam eh Crusader boy?
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Old 09-07-2004, 10:48 PM   #28
Encard
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Hierophant, if a means to an end were all that mattered, we'd likely all be dead. A means to an end can include such great things as nuclear genocide, and that's not good for anyone. Particularly when whoever you attacked striked back. And then of course both sides' allies, and so on. If all that mattered were winning the fight of the moment, the end result would be failure for everyone.

Not to mention, the hostage-takers were incompetent anyway. All they've gotten themselves now is a great deal of animosity from the rest of the world. Congratulations, now the country will be free! Hmm... No, somehow I doubt it.

And, not to derail the discussion, but as a side note... Acting on total subjective morality doesn't work if one wishes to preserve society. Think about it a bit more, I'm fairly sure you'll see why I say that. As such, attempting to excuse atrocities based on that argument doesn't work unless you're also willing to excuse anything and everything else.

EDIT: Oh, and DBear... yeah, terrorists are bad. But so is killing random people in a huge explosion that's not likely to bring much benefit, and so is nuclear fallout.

[ 09-07-2004, 10:50 PM: Message edited by: Encard ]
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Old 09-07-2004, 10:50 PM   #29
Knightscape
Manshoon
 

Join Date: October 4, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Hierophant:
quote:
Originally posted by Knightscape:
Well, if the parents ever ask me why this happened, then sure, I'll tell them

You seem to see this in a short-term sense. As an emotional crisis, a human tragedy. That's fine, whatever works for you. I see the long-term, detached progression of events. A means to an end is all that matters. Cry and mourn all you like, it falls on deaf ears with me.
[/QUOTE]No, I look at this in a long term sense. A means to an end is a short sighted point of view, it doesn't take into account the long term ramifications of the action.

Did the terrorists deliver a stinging blow to the Russian people? Most certainly.
Did they achieve autonomy? No, and now that the Russian government and people have been backed into a corner, they are less likely to achieve their autonomy. All the terrorists did was to set themselves up for some harse reprisals.

If the means to an end was meant for the terrorist to be hunted or killed they acieved their goal, otherwise the short-sightedness of these individuals has condemed themselves and their cause.
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Old 09-07-2004, 11:17 PM   #30
The Hierophant
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Join Date: May 10, 2002
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Quote:
Originally posted by Encard:
Hierophant, if a means to an end were all that mattered, we'd likely all be dead. A means to an end can include such great things as nuclear genocide, and that's not good for anyone. Particularly when whoever you attacked striked back. And then of course both sides' allies, and so on. If all that mattered were winning the fight of the moment, the end result would be failure for everyone.

Not to mention, the hostage-takers were incompetent anyway. All they've gotten themselves now is a great deal of animosity from the rest of the world. Congratulations, now the country will be free! Hmm... No, somehow I doubt it.

And, not to derail the discussion, but as a side note... Acting on total subjective morality doesn't work if one wishes to preserve society. Think about it a bit more, I'm fairly sure you'll see why I say that. As such, attempting to excuse atrocities based on that argument doesn't work unless you're also willing to excuse anything and everything else.

EDIT: Oh, and DBear... yeah, terrorists are bad. But so is killing random people in a huge explosion that's not likely to bring much benefit, and so is nuclear fallout.
Ah, nice words, it's just a pity that you completely misunderstand me.

Means to an end is again a subjective concept. The people that died at that school are not the important matter (in my eyes), neither is the hostage-taker's 'cause', nor the political or military reaction of their supposed opponents in the 'Russian' government. What matters is the expression of power, the primal display of conflict, and the method of its psychological justification. What strikes my eye is the exertion of dominance, and the way in which a group collectively validates its wrath through its conventional morality. Russian, Chechnyan, Kazak, American, Muslim, Christian, Capitalist, Communist.... they are all definitions of varying psychological blueprints. How do these blueprints interact? That's what I observe.

The ideology of identity. How does it work? Emotions certainly come into play, but these in turn are governed by one's chosen, and trained identity.

Society is preserved when servants and masters recognise who and what they are, and relegate themselves into their subsequent positions in their social hierarchies. The will to power is, and always has been, the binding force of life itself. Morality, subjective as it is, wraps itself around this principle, varying from person to person, time to time, place to place.

But that's just my subjective opinion

[ 09-07-2004, 11:18 PM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]
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