The murder of a murderer....

[Azred]

Originally posted by Talthyr Malkaviel: quote: Let me reiterate: If a 17-year-old commits an adult crime, then the 17-year-old must accept the adult consequences.

Wow, surprisingly I've never heard of an adult crime before??
What's the exact definition of an adult crime? And if for example shoplifting was classed as a child crime would adults be charged the same as a child?
First I've ever heard of it, I was just there thinking crimes were not reserved for any specific age.[/QUOTE] [img]graemlins/doh.gif[/img] I admit it! Confusion in my own post. "Adult" crime--isn't that what they cover in the vice squad? [img]graemlins/laugh3.gif[/img]

[Deathcow]

this doesnt directly address the question, but its related

why would you rather see someone put in jail for life instead of executing them? $30,000-40,000 is spent on EACH person in jail every year! thats more than i make, and we're paying taxes for it. it doesn't make any sense to me.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Alexander,

You have stated that a 17 year old in Texas cannot smoke, drink, gamble, or vote. Unfortunately, you are WRONG! (except for the voting issue).

A 17 year old CAN do ALL of these things. They just risk being punished because it is illegal for them to do it at that age.

They can also commit murder. If they caught and [b]convicted[/b, then they must face the penalty for that offense also.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: Interestingly enough most of them are not, few murderers go on to re-offend, besides apart from special cases, and many people commit murder dues to emotional stresses and imbalances that are temporary.

And statistics show that they WILL "re-offend" when placed under those same "emotional stresses and temporary imbalances" again.

Remember the day trader who killed his wife and children in Atlanta, GA a couple of years ago. It turns out there was strong (but inconclusive) evidence that he had also murdered his first wife and her mother.

When the sheriff tried to find a hole in his alibi, his girlfriend steadfastly stood by his side and defended him. That same girlfriend (along with her two children) died by his hand just a few years later.

When Atlanta news reporters interviewed the sheriff (from Alabama, IIRC), he said that he was sad - BUT NOT SURPRISED - to hear about the death of her and her children.

BTW, the statistic you give for Florida should prove that our justice system DOES work. They have executed 50 people since 1979, but RELEASED 21. You claim these are miscarriages of justice - but you are mistaken. They, in fact, are proof that our justice system does work. Twenty-one innocents were NOT killed by Florida.

You say there are serious questions about other death-row inmates...I'm sure those cases are being reviewed also, and that some of those inmates my be released.

I agree that it sounds like Florida definitely needs to improve thier system. Then again, maybe they have and that's why 21 former death-row inmates are now free.

Originally posted by Azred: font color = lightgreen>Very nicely stated; good points, both. I know that many people have issues with the US not honoring the agreements Clinton signed, but an executive order is a far cry from a treaty; it does not have to be honored by any other sitting President. I wish that there were not miscarriages of justice, but I must accept the fact that since we are not perfect that these will happen. Furthermore, I would like to see the mentally challenged protected from death penalties--they should be hospitalized instead. Finally, racial bias will be with us for centuries to come; let's just try to get past this as quickly as possible. [/QB]

So we should just accept that there is rampant racism in desciding who pays with their life, and who pays with their time?

Originally posted by Azred: Those statistics are correct. In fact, no form of punishment ever invented has been a successful deterrent to crime. Even in the harshest societies with the strictest punishments people still committed crimes on a daily basis.[/QB]

Exactly, That is why we should focus less on the punishment aspect, rather we should focus more on the causes (i.e. rich poor gap, Poverty, Injustice etc) of crime, and helping to rehabilitate the offenders, as oppose to punishing them. For example you have someone who sniffs a little coke, don’t punish him or her, ask why he or she did it, and help him or her not to do it again.

[Talthyr Malkaviel]

Originally posted by Azred: quote: Originally posted by Talthyr Malkaviel: quote: Let me reiterate: If a 17-year-old commits an adult crime, then the 17-year-old must accept the adult consequences.

Wow, surprisingly I've never heard of an adult crime before??
What's the exact definition of an adult crime? And if for example shoplifting was classed as a child crime would adults be charged the same as a child?
First I've ever heard of it, I was just there thinking crimes were not reserved for any specific age.[/QUOTE] [img]graemlins/doh.gif[/img] I admit it! Confusion in my own post. "Adult" crime--isn't that what they cover in the vice squad? [img]graemlins/laugh3.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]LMAO [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] well, I don't know, that kind of crime probably could be called adult.

[Larry_OHF]

The main reason that I think that we want to see evil-minded men punished to the extremes, even removed from society is for fear that our own families and loved ones are in danger. Sure, everyone wants to have a perfect world where you do not have to lock up your house when you go away, your children are safe to play in the streets, and everybody is nice to everyone. When you hear of a bad-guy in town, you do not want this man around your living area, for he is a danger to everything you hold personally dear to yourself.

When I took my child to a church social gathering, there were alot of kids running around, and I let MaryBeth go play with them. I kept my eye on the games they were engaged in, but then I saw one kid haul off and hit MaryBeth for being too close to him while he was running with a truck. He hit her with the truck, knocking her down. I was over there in an instant...an amazing sprint..and just as the kid had taken the truck into the air to deliver it again to my fallen child's head as she lay there screaming, I had grabbed the truck in mid-swing and jerked it back with enough force to spin him around. I threw the truck into the bushes to be found later and grabbed his arm and with a terrible voice, yelled..."You will NOT hurt my daughter ever again!" Then I got up, left him to shit in his pants, and picked up my daughter to tend to her. I wanted to hit that kid with the truck to show him how it felt. I mean...he hurt MY daughter! Of course, I did not hurt the kid, and the mother of the boy scolded him afterwards and apologized to me for the trouble, and I had calmed down, so I told her everything was okay.

My point is...I really think alot about the safety of my family. If it means sending an accused murderer to meet his maker that makes me feel a little safer in the world...so be it. My family is more important to me than a stranger.
That is why capital punishment exists, I think. To make amends. To put the innocents at peace, and make them feel safe again.
That is my idea, anyway...I had not thought about the reason and pshycology behind our thinking until today.

Does anybody wanna comment on my opinion?

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: *snip* [QB]

Actually, they were going to be killed, but were released by the act of outside agencies, if the america justice system had had it's way, they would have been dead.
The fact that so many innocents were sentenced to death in so short a time raises fundamental questions about whether the justice system for death penalty is flawed.

Numerous procedural bars exist which prevent a defendant from appealing certain claims, placing responsibility on the often ineffective defense counsel to timely and precisely object to constitutional violations at trial and throughout the appeals process

While much of the vocal religious right supports capital punishment, most major religious groups support abolition of the death penalty. They include the American Baptist Churches in the U.S.A., Disciples of Christ, the Episcopal Church, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Mennonite Church, Orthodox Church in America, Presbyterian Church USA, Reformed Church in America, Uniterian Universalist Association, United Church of Christ, The United Methodist Church, and the U.S Catholic Conference.

April 23, 1998. Texas. Joseph Cannon. It took two attempts to complete the execution of Joseph Cannon. The first time, a vein in his arm collapsed and the needle popped out. Cannon had laid back and closed his eyes when he realized what had happened. "It's come undone" he told witnesses. Officials pulled a curtain to block witnesses from seeing what was happening and fifteen minutes later the second attempt began.

July 18, 1996. Indiana. Tommie Smith. Smith was not pronounced dead until an hour and 20 minutes after the execution team began to administer the lethal combination of intravenous drugs. Prison officials said the team could not find a vein in Smith's arm and had to insert an angio-catheter into his heart, a procedure that took 35 minutes. According to authorities, Smith remained conscious during that procedure

July 8, 1999. Florida. Allen Lee Davis. When hit with the 2,300 volts, blood poured from Davis' mouth. The blood poured onto the collar of his white shirt, and oozed onto his chest. By the time he was pronounced dead, the stain on Davis' chest had grown to the size of a dinner plate, and seeped through buckle holes on the leather chest strap holding him to the chair. Davis was the first inmate to be executed in Florida's new electric chair.

May 7, 1992. Texas. Justin Lee May. May had an unusually violent reaction to the lethal drugs. According to Robert Wernsman, a reporter for the Item (Huntsville), May "gasped, coughed and reared against his heavy leather restraints, coughing once again before his body froze. . ." Associated Press reporter Michael Graczyk wrote, " He went into coughing spasms, groaned and gasped, lifted his head from the death chamber gurney and would have arched his back if he had not been belted down. After he stopped breathing his eyes and mouth remained open."

May 4, 1990. Florida. Jesse Joseph Tafero. When the state replaced a "natural" sponge with a synthetic sponge in the headpiece of the execution apparatus, six-inch flames erupted, and three jolts of power were required to stop Tafero's breathing. Support for the state's faulty sponge theory was generated by sticking a part of it into a "common household toaster" and noting that it smoldered and caught fire. Extensive investigation by the office of the Capital Collateral Investigator in Tallahassee questioned this theory as other states have used synthetic sponges with no problems

Many states with the death penalty have higher murder rates than neighboring non-death penalty states. The murder rate in the U.S. is six times that of England, which does not have the death penalty, even though the rates of other crimes are largely similar. Some studies actually show a brutalization effect of the death penalty, including a slight rise in the murder rate immediately following an execution

March 25, 1997. Florida. Pedro Medina. With the first jolt of electricity, blue and orange flames sparked from the mask covering Medina's face. Flames up to a foot long shot out from the right side of Medina's head for 6 - 10 seconds. The execution chamber clouded with smoke, and the smell of burnt flesh filled the witness room

The Baldus study, recognized by the Supreme Court in McCleskey v. Kemp (1987), looking at Georgia murder cases in the 1970's, found that the death penalty was assessed in 22% of cases involving black defendants and white victims, 8% of cases involving white defendants and white victims, 1% of cases involving black defendants and black victims, and 3% of cases involving white defendants and black victims. Nevertheless, the Court concluded that racial disparities in sentencing "are an inevitable part of our criminal justice system."

Originally posted by Larry_OHF: Does anybody wanna comment on my opinion?[/QB]

The death penalty does not stop murders since the U.S.A while executing more people than most other countries in the world, still has a much higher crime rate than Europe, which has no death penalty. If it makes people feel safer, it’s a false economy.
Fear of punishment rarely, if ever stops people form committing a crime. If you want to feel safer, you must embark on policies, which will make everyone feel safer and happier, the only way to reduce crime is to strike at its causes.

[Larry_OHF]

Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: quote: Originally posted by Larry_OHF: Does anybody wanna comment on my opinion?

The death penalty does not stop murders since the U.S.A while executing more people than most other countries in the world, still has a much higher crime rate than Europe, which has no death penalty. If it makes people feel safer, it’s a false economy.
Fear of punishment rarely, if ever stops people form committing a crime. If you want to feel safer, you must embark on policies, which will make everyone feel safer and happier, the only way to reduce crime is to strike at its causes.[/QB][/QUOTE]You have a very valid, understandable point. Thanks!