All DM's and Players, drop by here.(Advice Thread)

[PurpleXVI]

Player Peeves:

You Can't Do That!

DM/GMPC's

DM's Girlfriend(Or any other favouritized player, but the girlfriend getting special advantages and plot lines is a classic.).

Railroading of any sort. The DM may have a plot laid out and such, he may have grand plans, but he also needs to consider his players and their characters. There needs to be some sort of IC reason why Bob the MurderSlayer would want to rescue the Princess of the Faerie Kingdom of Gub. Therefore, of course, I am also fine with the DM telling me to rejigger my character, prior to the game start, so my character will actually have a motivation that fits with the game. I'm willing to work with my DM, as long as he's willing to accept the fact that I'm going to resort to being Creative from time to time.


DM Peeves:

Blah Blah Blah.(When the players spend more time sitting around a campfire yakking than getting on with doing stuff.)

So, Like, What's My Motivation For This Scene?(When you give them something other than a giant, glowing neon sign to follow and the characters just stand around scratching their asses and doing nada because the players forgot to grant their characters any motivations besides Following Obvious Plot Hooks.)

I Hit the Ogre, I Hit the Ogre Again, I Hit the Ogre Till it Dies.(One-liners over and over again. I'm sure your character has a deep background, but all I'm learning is that he likes hitting things and mindlessly following others.)

[Cerek]

My biggest pet peeve as a player is DM abuse - such as having my character placed in a "no win" situation. This is - admittedly - a very rare occurrance. It happened once in a PnP game and once in an IW online game.

The PnP game was the worst. I was playing a grugach (wild elf) thief, so I naturally distrusted the other characters anyway. The DM decided (just for his own jollies) to put my character into a situation that would inevitably lead to inter-party conflict. He "introduced" an NPC that the group had met several times before, but my character had never seen. Turns out it was a minor demon. He did a favor for my character so I thought "Hey, this guy is pretty cool". Of course, the REST of the party was not happy with my actions because this NPC had caused a LOT of grief in the party before. Being placed in that situation without knowing the history is bad enough, but the DM actually LIED to some of the other PLAYERS (not characters - the actual players) about what my character had done. This led to one of the other members openly challenging me to a fight. I tried to back out of it, but was given no choice. When I told the challenger I didn't have a magical weapon that was equal to his, another party member offered me their sword to use - and told me it was a Sword of Sharpness. When I rolled well enough to cut my accuser's arm off, the party member THEN revealed that he had lied to me about the swords magical properties. It was a cursed sword and I couldn't get rid of it. Needless to say, I got my ass handed to me in the fight. I was beaten nearly to death, then healed by the party cleric. The party then took a very patronizing attitude and said that "now that they had whipped me into line, they expected me to behave better. If I acted up again, the next challenge would be for real".

I could handle all of this IF it had happened through legitimate ROLEPLAYING. But the fact is that the DM deliberately set me up and then LIED OOC to the PLAYERS to make the group attack my character. In return, I did something I never did before - I removed my character from the game and walked out. I went to the DM the next day and told him he was NOT going to screw over one of my characters just to entertain himself.

The IW incident occurred in a game run by Cyril and Larry. I was playing a human cleric named Zachary. He was a lot of fun because this character redefined the term "zealot" - he had some incredibly good luck in his low levels and he honostly came to believe that he was the "Chosen of Odin". He would help the party any way he could, but he would also go on and on about how he was Odin's favoured cleric, etc. etc. Anyway, after a few weeks in the game, the party hit an impasse. Things were happening (or not happening) that I didn't particularly agree with. I discussed the issue with Larry and I decided (again) to simply pull Zachary out of the game. I did it through RP, though. I had him use a Succor spell(IIRC) to return to his home temple when he realized things were beyond his ability to control or influence anymore. After a couple of weeks, I was approached and asked to bring Zachary back into the game. The party was in dire trouble and I was led to believe Zachary was the only person who had a chance to prevent everyone being killed. But once I rejoined the game, Zachary turned out to be nothing more than cannon fodder and I learned that there had NEVER been a chance for any action he took to affect the final outcome.

I left IW Online RP after that incident. I don't hold any grudges against Cyril or Larry for what happened. It was a long time ago and it's water under the bridge. But I do hate it when a DM abuses his/her power and puts any character in a situation they have no hope of surviving.

[Larry_OHF]

Thank you for sharing that openly, Cerek. I do not remember the circumstance in the way that you describe it, (I actually do not remember them at all), but the way you perceived the situation matters just as much because the way the game is perceived by its players as fun, engaging, challenging, interesting, boring, too difficult, uneven, (and all those other words), is what will determine if a DM has a future in DM'ing. I'll try to do better for my current gamers than it appears that I did for you. Maybe you'll come back sometime and we can try it again.

[Morgeruat]

I think the incident in question had something to do with a character of mine that became the Reaper in the last few LOF games, that wasn't really a good situation for anyone involved, primarily as the route my character was going had been mapped out as a pretty far and hard fall, unfortunately being in the area with that character screwed Cerek over when he genuinely tried to help without knowing about a couple of very bad things.

Cerek, from what I recall and from my side of the events, it wasn't directed at you to screw you over, it was simply consequences from unknown elements like the devouring wind and a night hag who had latched onto that incarnation of Morguerat the fallen, and your interactions with them. Asisting as you tried to do hurt your character, but it wasn't really a no-win, just no hope in sight and bad placement of your character.

[PurpleXVI]

And for the record, if any of my players decide to post here, feel free to speak up about anything horrible happening in my games that you really wish I'd knock off.

[Cerek]

Originally posted by Morgeruat: I think the incident in question had something to do with a character of mine that became the Reaper in the last few LOF games, that wasn't really a good situation for anyone involved, primarily as the route my character was going had been mapped out as a pretty far and hard fall, unfortunately being in the area with that character screwed Cerek over when he genuinely tried to help without knowing about a couple of very bad things. Cerek, from what I recall and from my side of the events, it wasn't directed at you to screw you over, it was simply consequences from unknown elements like the devouring wind and a night hag who had latched onto that incarnation of Morguerat the fallen, and your interactions with them. Asisting as you tried to do hurt your character, but it wasn't really a no-win, just no hope in sight and bad placement of your character.

I didn't perceive the LOF game events as being designed to screw me over. I think Larry gave me some very general clues about what was happening to your character and that your "fall" was inevitable. I felt I could avoid it if I RPed it right, but got the basic feeling that nothing I tried would be successful. So it was decided that Zachary would just disappear from the storyline and return home. Then - some time later - I was approached about returning to the game. I replied that I didn't want to return to a game when my character had no chance to affect or change the outcome. I don't remember all the details, but I was led to believe that my character COULD make a difference and may possibly be the ONLY character that could make a difference. So I came back. Events went South and my character suffered greatly from it. Then I learned the outcome had already been pre-determined and that there really was NOTHING I could have possibly done to change it. That made me feel like I wasted a large chunk of time and effort.

[Caleb808]

I hate searching corridors. Any time my character enters a place with a series of long hallways and many rooms I usually get bored and post something like "___ searches all the rooms, starting with the nearest one." Maybe I have a lack of imagination but unless they're described in great detail, I envision these environments as being something like the the endless, white hallways from Bill & Ted's Bogus adventure. Although if all the rooms lead to some unique slice of hell like that movie(Which is actually pretty common in Neb's games)rather than superficial differences then it's more fun to explore.

[PurpleXVI]

I try to avoid having too many corridors and rooms in my games for that reason, though it is occasionally a bit unavoidable. It's not so bad if you're around a table and people can easily check out a bunch of rooms in rapid successions, but online, it can easily become a drag since it's about a day per room, meaning that just an ordinary house or cellar could easily end up taking a week of real-time to search.

But hey, I'm glad to hear that someone appreciates my efforts to torture and maim my players to the best of my ability.

I generally go by the philosophy, in online games, that if it doesn't serve a purpose, then just give it a few lines and move on, don't waste an entire post describing someone's basement or an NPC's trousers. If the players walk past a pretty tree on their journey somewhere, give it a few lines, sure, but don't stop the journey for it. End your post when you get to something that needs their decision, like a horrible monster or something they can interact with in a meaningful way. That is: An obstacle, an opportunity or a place where the story/path might diverge.

EDIT: Not that I always manage to stick with this, but I make an effort to.

[Dron_Cah]

My experience generally deals with PnP in my group at home (including Ilander, who we generally make the GM). Haven't played much recently, stupid things like college are getting in the way. Anyways, I've played both roles, and my gripes tend towards my specific group.

As a player: I agree with the problem of being totally outclassed by other characters. This is a recurring thing with one of my friend's powergamed characters, a nightbane dedicated martial artist. A combination that is supposed to be possible, but oh well. Anytime this character is in a game, he tends to dominate the direction of the game, and it usually leads to PvP, which will be my next pet peeve. Recently, Ilander and I have been bringing our characters into sync to offset the far too powerful character, and bring some different elements to the game. This works, somewhat, but it's pretty annoying that it's necessary.
Next is PvP. While this is almost always entertaining, it gets very old when it happens every game. I've played games in which PvP has taken 4-6 hours (generally the overpowered character is involved). Nothing else really gets done, or the storyline becomes more like a side bar.
A GM that doesn't seem to have any direction for the player to go in. Supposedly this gives one freedom, but in my experience, it leads to the player just doing mundane tasks and suddenly being dropped in a battle that doesn't lead to anything remotely like a storyline.
Finally, the problem of a GM needing to show off his arbitrary power. This, combined with players who're rules lawyers (like myself, at times) leads to long debates that end with, "I'm the GM, my word is law." While this is true, I really don't feel like having my level 1 archer fighting an ambush of six werewolves, or 30 dragons, or some gods. (All of these situations have happened under a certain GM in my group, by the way.) This leads to what was mentioned by Cerek: I have absolutely no effect on the game. No fun.

As a DM: Characters that are more worried about bluffing to each other about how great they are, leading to endless PvP (seeing a trend?).
Characters that have NO imagination, and wait for you to throw enemies/loot at them.
Characters that take themselves waaay too seriously. Let me rephrase that: Players that take their characters waaay to seriously. Not every character should be killing a person because they look at them too long. This also makes it difficult to bring that character into groups that don't utterly revere them.
Characters that prefer to argue with the GM rather than deal with a situation.

Thus ends my (not so)little rant. Also, a disclaimer: Many of the problems outlined here are not those perpetuated by Lyle (Ilander), while some are. I'm sure he knows what's what, and won't be overly insulted.
Excellent thread, Purple!