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Old 10-28-2004, 09:15 AM   #31
Stratos
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God, Jesus and Satan were probably left out of the DnD pantheon for a good reason.
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Old 10-28-2004, 06:50 PM   #32
Lucern
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Good and thoughtful post Cerek. I'm adding a couple that I've heard and read frequently, addressed in yellow below.

Quote:
1) AD&D teaches kids to worship false gods.
I also want to point out that in AD&D, not only are the gods mortal to some extent, but their ranks come from mortals from whatever domain they rule over. In Pools of Radience and Curse of the Azure Bonds (CRPGs from the late 1980s) you're trying to stop Tyrannthraxus from attaining god-hood. Also present in the Forgotten Realms are long extinct gods, such as Bane, replaced by Cyric and I think Baal (known from Baldur's Gate fame). Baal even gets mention in the Old Testament as a false god if I'm not mistaken. Pool of radience was on the cusp of being 1st edition. But I definately agree here that nobody actually worships them, nor are they given any clue how to worship them. In 3rd edition the gods matter to the extent that a Cleric's spells are dependent upon them.

Quote:
In the 2nd and 3rd editions of AD&D, the demons and daemons described in the original Monster Manuals were noticeably absent.
Can you give a few examples? The differences between the 1st edition and the others are interesting to me as far as this goes. I started with 2nd ed, and now play 3rd. In the Planescape box set there are a host of made up demonic entities among the Tanaar'i and Ba'atzu. I did notice that imps and succubi are in the game still.

Quote:
5) At the very least, AD&D introduces kids to the basic terminology of the occult. This could lead to a curiousity and desire to learn more about occultic practices.
I'm not sure if this is still true Cerek, with the current edition, at least to the same extent. I mean, spells are there, and there are creatures like vampires, ghosts, wraiths, and demons, but having just looked through the Players handbook and the Dungeon Master's Handbook (3rd ed, not 3.5) the closest thing I found was the "Book of Vile Darkness" magic item in the DMG, that had a pentacle with wonky wrong lines. Granted, not believing that anything in the occult is real makes me less sensitive to it. Disbelief also renders me somewhat incapable of fearing that children or anyone else will learn how to do any of the stuff. However, if I was sure that playing/acting certain things would translate to wanting to carry it over to real life, I would be much more concerned with some of the supplemental rulebooks that come out. For example, there is a Book of Vile Darkness supplement, for 'mature audiences only' (nothing sexual) that details rules for evil characters: demonic possession, making poisons, and worst of all, torture. Of course, there's always the Book of Exalted Deeds for the power of good.

Then there's always the game Vampire (and all of its offshoots), that by nature do exactly as Cerek says. I think there are some key cultural differences in those who talk about the evils of RPGs and those who think they're harmless: the first depends on whether you believe the occult reflects reality in any sense. From those that level charges that I've read, there is an underlying assumption that spirits, witchcraft, and demons are real. The other is whether you believe that RPGs provide inherently immoral contexts and experiences, and whether or not players are in fact changed by that in their daily lives. This is possible, but see below for why I don't believe it (aside from personal experience).

People who play AD&D are more likely to commit crimes than others of their age. People who play AD&D are also more likely to commit suicide.

Though scary allegations, both of them are very much false. See the link from my other post in this thread (to religious tolerance.org). RPGers are actually less likely than their peers to do either one of these.
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Old 10-28-2004, 07:48 PM   #33
Variol (Farseer) Elmwood
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Dispite being christian, I prefer "evil" or undead things in my gaming world anyway... makes me feel better about the dirt job I have to do.. rid the world of evil! woo hoo!

Our DM always creates his own gaming world, never the premade ones. And I'll tell you, he does an amazing job! There are times when I'm actually scared playing the game; which is what you want, right?
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Old 10-28-2004, 11:23 PM   #34
The Hierophant
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Well, I don't know about anyone else but for me the AD&D characterisation of 'Ilmater the suffering God' bears very close resemblance to the crucified Christ. So I wouldn't say the Judeo-Christian theogany has been overlooked in the AD&D pantheon.
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Old 10-29-2004, 06:34 PM   #35
krunchyfrogg
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Hierophant:
Well, I don't know about anyone else but for me the AD&D characterisation of 'Ilmater the suffering God' bears very close resemblance to the crucified Christ. So I wouldn't say the Judeo-Christian theogany has been overlooked in the AD&D pantheon.
A fact that makes me really dislike the Forgotten Realms setting.

D&D is, was, and alsways should be an escape, a fun thing to do. It should not incorporate real-world things that can make one uncomfortable, something the FRCS has done here (for me anyway).

BTW, the I happen to agree with the poster on the first page who said that he knew someone who had to give up Pokemon and Everquest b/c it was negatively affecting their lives. While it's never happened to me, it's so wrong to laugh at that person.

Anything taken to extreme can turn into a bad thing, and if you're neglecting some things in your life that need to be done, and playing a video game instead, it is a problem that needs to be addressed.
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Old 10-29-2004, 06:50 PM   #36
Stratos
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Well, caring for the poor and downtrodden is a major aspect of most world religions, so it's only natural that the DnD universe (in this case FR) would have a deity for this.

[ 10-29-2004, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: Stratos ]
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Old 10-29-2004, 09:31 PM   #37
Variol (Farseer) Elmwood
Jack Burton
 

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BTW, the I happen to agree with the poster on the first page who said that he knew someone who had to give up Pokemon and Everquest b/c it was negatively affecting their lives. While it's never happened to me, it's so wrong to laugh at that person.

Yeah, that was me. And when they told me that, it's exactly what I did, laugh. But when they explained it to me, I understood.
Another friend of mine was failing grade 10 badly and actually quit because of Everquest! That's just scary. I think I have to put some fault on the parents as well though.
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Old 10-29-2004, 10:11 PM   #38
Lord of Alcohol
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arledrian:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp

[img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/evillaughter2.gif[/img]
Thats Jehovahs Witness all the way. My buddy is a disfellowshipped JW, he knows the literature lol. The stories he tells me are ludicrous about them.
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Old 10-29-2004, 10:15 PM   #39
Animal
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lord of Alcohol:
quote:
Originally posted by Arledrian:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp

[img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/evillaughter2.gif[/img]
Thats Jehovahs Witness all the way. My buddy is a disfellowshipped JW, he knows the literature lol. The stories he tells me are ludicrous about them. [/QUOTE]I have some reading material that I'd like you to have. Perhaps I could mail it to you?
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Old 10-30-2004, 03:14 AM   #40
Lucern
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[Cheap comments from the first few panels of Dark Dungeons]

Problem 1) What are the odds that the game, especially in its early days, is going to have 4 gals to three guys? As I've heard joked before, it wouldn't have been considered such a nerdy game if that was the case!
2) 10 sodas for 7 people? Oh wait, he got that part right lol.
3) Note that they point out 'the thief'. The idea of allowing someone to play one is often used to smear DnD.
4) They made her leave? lol You know...once you die in DnD, you get to make a new character generally. Nobody makes you leave, especially if they haven't tried to resurrect you yet.
5) Neither do you get to declare that you blinded the monster with your light spell. The DM tells you if you succeeded.
6) And the wizard becomes the cleric in panel 3.

Yes, I know it's embellished for effect, and that Chick never rolled up a character.

Still...
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