Church and giving

[cormack]

I have a question concerning giving to your church. It is sunday and very wet and rainy so my wife and I skipped Church to enjoy our time together and sleep in for a change , but my higher power is on my mind and this partcular question crossed my thoughts.

Say a person gives to a church or ministry out of the goodness of his/her heart and does it for reverence to God and because it feels good. He feels what he has given with what he has received in life can never be repaid, but they (he/she) should still try.
What if it turned out the Pastor,Father,Preist, group leader,etc.. was buying expensive material things for his girlfriend with them.

Do you believe that your spiritual leader canceled out your hopes and prayers on that giving or your blessing for them still weighs heavy in God's eyes?
Mybe you didn't research the ministry enough, got caught up with a leader's charisma, had family members involved, it could be alot of different things.

Myself, I beleive if one give's out of the goodness of his heart, often times semi-blindly, the blessing is givin no matter what your leader doe's with it. The person who asks in the long run is charged with doing the right thing with it and not the giver. (That is not to say that giving to a leader you know is suspicous because I don't think that will work either. )

There are many parable's and words about giving in the Bible but not to much clarity, for myself anyway, on this topic. Any response's would be appreciated and thank you in advance.

[Vaskez]

You should not feel bad, you gave in good faith out of the goodness of your heart, to what you thought to be a good cause. The pastor has betrayed your trust and God's so let it weigh on his conscience (if he has one). I would stop giving to this place or in this way. Make sure the money gets to where it should go.

However, if you are giving because you expect a blessing in return or something like that, then you are giving for the wrong reasons. Although I wouldn't say the pastor has cancelled our your hopes and prayers, the fact remains that you gave in good faith and with good intention, so nothing is cancelled out.

[ 05-25-2003, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: Vaskez ]

[Larry_OHF]

I would definately attend another church if this man has stolen funds that were to be used to build the Kingdom of God. Tithe payers and charitable funds payers expect the money to help those that are less fortunate and need immediate assistance, to help pay missionaries' travels in far countries, to help pay for building maintenance, purchase books like hymnals, etc. The problem is that the preacher does not consider a boundry between the church's welfare and his own.

A man's greed will always tempt him to rob God.

FYI>>>I am my church's Financial Clerk, for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We have a system set up that does not allow for theft! First, the clerk and a member of the Bishopric divide the money. Only the Bishopric member touches the money and the clerk enters the information into the computer system. After it is all counted and entered, the money is placed into a bag and sealed with a printed receipt attached that shows the count break-down. That is taken to the bank by two witnesses. A copy is kept on file, and then Salt Lake City receives the upload of what to expect incoming. At the end of the year, each member will go into tithing settlement and be shown a printed report of how much money they had contributed (for tax purposes), and at that time they can agree or disagree with what is printed. So...nobody would ever be able to steal the money or use it for any other purpose than what is to be expected. We do not have a paid clergy, btw.

[Yorick]

Cormack, the giving is twofold. Firstly it is a physical action that prioritises God, and reduces the hold money has over your life. You're giving it away. In giving it away it doesn't own you.

Jesus said you cannot worship God and money, so it's an important thing to do.

Secondly, (and more contentiously) there is the school of thought that suggests God is more able to bestow physical blessings on one who is physically blessing others.

It is said "you reap what you sow". If you are giving friendship, love and encouragement to others, the odds are you will recieve in kind.

The argument is that God is less likely to bless someone with finances that holds onto money very tightly, because it's a dead end. Wheras if you are giving it, there is a flow.

The last point centres around "prosperity doctrine", one which is not universally accepted in the Christian church.

However, the point remains that giving changes YOU. Giving to God is a benefit of itself regardless what happens to it after that point.

The second benefit of giving is that it enables pastors, social worskers and others employed by the church, to devote their time studying the bible, assisting people in need, counselling, preaching, writing and everything else.

Most church employees receive a set wage. A percentage of what is receved by a church, nowhere near the total amount. As such, do we disdain a man for spending some of that wage on a gift of love for his wife? If the church has agreed on an amount they want to bless their pastor with each week, is it not his discretion what he does with that money? If he buys his wife something, it's at the expense of something for himself.

I've been employed by various churches to record albums for them in the past. The music glorifies God, the church grows, they use the recordings to bless people in their church. I don't charge anywhere near what I should for a job like that, precisely because the money comes from peoples tithes and offerings.

However, the time I spend on a record is at the expense of time spent making money to pay for my rent. So it's understandable if I spend any money given to me on paying my rent is it not?

If I forgo certain things to give something to a woman I love, how is that wrong? Is not she receiving a blessing from a blessing I received because of a blessing I gave to God and the church?

[Epona]

Yorick, as you know, I'm not at all religious, but I like your reasoning there [img]smile.gif[/img]
I can agree with a lot of that in a philosophical sense, rather than a religious one (if that sentence actually makes any sense LOL).

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Epona: Yorick, as you know, I'm not at all religious, but I like your reasoning there [img]smile.gif[/img] I can agree with a lot of that in a philosophical sense, rather than a religious one (if that sentence actually makes any sense LOL).

It sure does. [img]smile.gif[/img] That's cool Laura!

[Cerek the Barbaric]

cormack - the first thing to find out is if a percentage of the tithes and offerings is designated to supplement the pastor's salary. There are some churches that have this arrangement - especially smaller ones that can't afford to pay a pastor a full salary.

I agree with Yorick's reasoning if this is the case. If the pastor is only taking the amount of money that he is entitled to, then that money is his to spend as he sees fit. However, IF he is taking all (or most) of the tithes meant for God's Kingdom and using them to buy material things for his girlfriend, then he is stealing from God and God will settle that account in His own way.

As for your own tithes, you will need to decide for yourself whether or not you feel comfortable tithing to your church and this pastor. If you don't feel comfortable with the pastor's actions, but don't want to change churches, you can use your tithe money to donate directly to a charity, homeless shelter, REACH center, or any other organization dedicated to helping those less fortunate than you (keep in mind that this is a personal philosphy of mine).

Also keep in mind that you don't tithe to receive blessings from God. You are tithing to thank God for blessings you have already received. But I also agree completely with Yorick's philosophy regarding this. The very act of tithing itself blesses the giver.

[cormack]

Thank's again for responding and really giving me alot of great thought's on this subject. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]
Tithing and gifts are different then.? This really complicates it even more for me. In the past I have given as my heart has led me to give and Not all my givings go to Church related activitys.

Sound's like a man made committment, where did tithing originate?

[Yorick]

Originally posted by cormack: Thank's again for responding and really giving me alot of great thought's on this subject. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] Tithing and gifts are different then.? This really complicates it even more for me. In the past I have given as my heart has led me to give and Not all my givings go to Church related activitys. Sound's like a man made committment, where did tithing originate?

The bible:

Leviticus 27:30
"A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the LORD; it is holy to the LORD.

Here's where the tithes went:

Numbers 18:21
"I give to the Levites all the tithes in Israel as their inheritance in return for the work they do while serving at the Tent of Meeting.

But the Levites, also had to tithe themselves...

Numbers 18:26
"Speak to the Levites and say to them: 'When you receive from the Israelites the tithe I give you as your inheritance, you must present a tenth of that tithe as the LORD's offering.

[ocelot]

Hey cormack !

You need to jump back to Leviticus 27:30 - 34 and read up from there. Everyone is very cool about these subjects here at IW just state your thread and enjoy the great understanding that is given.

You will notice alot of the Old Testament contains excellent advice besides hints on prospering in giving. Healthly advice is everywhere

[ 05-26-2003, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: ocelot ]