Evolution II

Originally posted by Moiraine: Quote: Originally posted by MagiK: If you really believe that there are not obvious and readily apparent limitations on some people and not others, and that some people are more well endowed than others, you are ignoring reality.

How come that when confronted to the simple neutral statement that all people are singular and different from each other, the human brain HAS to create a hierarchy ? [/QUOTE]Because in this case, some humans are obviously inferior to others. A healthy fit genius with good looks and nice personality is in evey way superiour to a sickly, decrepit, moron, with bad skin and a lousey disposition. Some people are really worth more than others, wether some of you all will admit it or not. Hell Im sure there are a couple of you who think Im totaly useless as a human

Originally posted by Yorick: Quote: Originally posted by Moiraine: Quote: Originally posted by MagiK: If you really believe that there are not obvious and readily apparent limitations on some people and not others, and that some people are more well endowed than others, you are ignoring reality.

How come that when confronted to the simple neutral statement that all people are singular and different from each other, the human brain HAS to create a hierarchy ? [/QUOTE]Exactly. Why does "different" become "better" or "worse"? WHy is the pursuit of money more highly regarded by some than the puruit of happiness.

It's like how humans rate a dogs intelligence by how obedient it is. Yet we would deride a human that slavishly followed the leader as a dog does.[/QUOTE]I know I should have known better to point out reality to you. You know as well as I do there are indeed worthless scum in the world, and some people are in fact worse than others. You live in a city with quite a few of those, but I guess you are gifted with extrodinary sight to see that everyone is equal from a the lowliest bum in the gutter, to the child molester on walstreet to the sickly person to the heathy person.... man I don't know how a person with that knd of sight manages to survive past puberty. Reality is an important thing to be able to distinguish...Utopian dreams and idealism are for the young and irresponsible.

[Timber Loftis]

I have to agree with MagiK that people are born with different aptitudes and predilections. Now, you may not like the subjective term "better" or "worse" and that's fine. Personally I don't mind them so much, but whatever.

To relate it to evolution, however, it is tacit to the very notion of natural selection that a species will have genetically-advantaged and genetically-disadvantaged characteristics. There is no doubt that (to take extreme examples) a person born without a heart or without a brain has less likelihood of surviving to pass on the trait.

On a more pragmatic level, people are NOT equal. Some are better at some things, some are better at others. Performance-wise and aptitude-wise some people are born with a better likelihood of achieving happiness in life.

I had the pleasure of living with a mentally-handicapped teenager while in Law School. He was a great kid. But, he *knew* he was different, and he also knew that he had less chance of achieving the things he wanted in life that other, more "normal," folks did. Plus, his family had to undertake a significant extra amount of planning to make sure he would have the care and things he needed throughout his life. Luckily, they could afford it. But, these feelings he had resulted in some real anger-management issues, especially where his siblings were concerned.

Anyway, my point is not just about those who suffer a handicap. Some people are born more lazy than each other. Some are born dumber or smarter, more physically strong or weak, more quick or slow. Modern-day PC attitudes and our desire to be considerate of all fellow humans should not result in ignoring the blatant realities of life.

Now, I know Yorick will (likely) assert the notion that all traits are either (1) learned or (2) innate bodily functions. I think he will say that even laziness is a learned characteristic. I emphatically disagree, because I can look at a liter of puppies or a group of newborns in the hospital and attest that some are more curious, some are meaner, some are shy, etc.

It seems obvious to me that most traits are part nature, part nurture, and that to insist on the dominance of one causal factor ignores our existence within the physical laws of the prime material plane onto which we were born.

And, if I may whine for just one moment, nobody is answering the questions I posed in my last post on this thread.

[LordKathen]

Originally posted by Yorick: Quote: Originally posted by LordKathen: I dont think you are looking at the picture big enough. We most certainly have become to smart. Cars take up room yes, but why did we make cars in the first place? Yes it is about resource management, but if we continue on the road we are on, all the resources we could manage would eventually run out also. Our intelagence has created a world where we use many times the amount of resources we can handle at the rate we are populating. We will wipe our selfs out. There is no way around it. Lets take a look at the picture really tiny. Viruses are out evolving our science and vaccines. They addapt to our envirement quicker than we can find a new weapon. Our immune systems are becoming weaker against sickness, becouse we are becoming to reliant on antibacterial products and such. That is only one problem of many we will face.

But all this is proof that humans are not "too clever for our own good" Kathen [/QUOTE]Aye? How?

[LordKathen]

Originally posted by Yorick: Quote: Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: I am saying that some people are more advanced than others. Look at the people you meet in your daily life. Not every one is smart or strong. To say that all people are at the same place in terms of smarts and potential is to blatantly ignore what is seen in daily life. Not all humans are smart enough to be Bill Gates or Stephen Hawking.

I could not disagree more. Every human is smart enough to be either of those two. It comes down to focus and direction of physical and mental energy. Because the brain controls every action, a sucessful athlete has a sucessful brain - motivation, control, finesse etc all require mental strength.

I accept some have APTITUDES for certain skills more than others, but these are not defined limitations.

Every healthy human should be able to sing for example. Mental and psychological inhibitions prevent this. If it's true in one field it can be true in others.

I do not accept that a smart person like Einstein is more advanced than the next. Especially when someone like Einstein is deficient in other areas, like relationships.[/QUOTE]I could not disagree more myself, if I may interject. Psycologicaly, everyone is on their own level. We are not all born with the same mental abilities.
I dont think Einstien was more evolved, but certainly smarter, probly from birth, than most.
Take my kids, my little girl has, from birth, been more advanced then the other kids. She talked sooner, walked sooner, learned alphabet sooner, etc.
Some say this is becouse she is a girl, maybe to a point, but not at this extent. She is advanced psycologicaly. This does not mean more evolved, but smarter. She figures things out in her head, from motor skills to speach, quicker than the norm.

[John D Harris]

I'm a Christian and have no problem what so ever with either the genic donors of man being apes, or the genic donors not being apes. God created the universe apes included, exactly how He did it I don't have a clue, nor does it matter to me. The Bible indicates it took 6 days, a day is a peiod of time. What is time to a infinite God? Did God chose to let the nature, which He created run it's course? Did God start everything off at a set point? IMHO neither matter what matters is that God started it, the hows, whens, or whys are of no consequence. Remember the book of Genises was writen so a bunch of early brozen age farmers and shepards could grasp the concept that God created everything. Is my faith going to be rocked because somebody finds a missing link? No, it wouldn't be a very strong faith then. All it would show me is how little we, as finite beings know. Now compare what we as finite beings know to an infinte God, I know that is an impossiblity, because we are finite and can't even grasp the Infinte.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by John D Harris: ....exactly how He did it I don't have a clue, nor does it matter to me. The Bible indicates it took 6 days, a day is a peiod of time. What is time to a infinite God? Did God chose to let the nature, which He created run it's course? Did God start everything off at a set point? IMHO neither matter what matters is that God started it, the hows, whens, or whys are of no consequence...

Mr. Harris, you would be amazed at how much of your sentiment I, an avowed atheist, agree with. In particular I like the excerpt I quoted above. I took it one step further though, and decided that the very existence of God was irrelevant. The way I see it, once you have a moral code and the ability to expand and mature that moral code and yourself, the paths you choose are as clear whether God exists or not. IMO, if you know the good, it doesn't matter whether you believe in God.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by MagiK: I know I should have known better to point out reality to you. You know as well as I do there are indeed worthless scum in the world, and some people are in fact worse than others. You live in a city with quite a few of those, but I guess you are gifted with extrodinary sight to see that everyone is equal from a the lowliest bum in the gutter, to the child molester on walstreet to the sickly person to the heathy person....

It is my view that no human is 'worthless scum' MagiK. I have not seen one "worthless scum" in New York City either. If that is truly your view then it's your loss. Ones external judgement is often similar to ones internal judgement.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by LordKathen: I could not disagree more myself, if I may interject. Psycologicaly, everyone is on their own level. We are not all born with the same mental abilities. I dont think Einstien was more evolved, but certainly smarter, probly from birth, than most. Take my kids, my little girl has, from birth, been more advanced then the other kids. She talked sooner, walked sooner, learned alphabet sooner, etc. Some say this is becouse she is a girl, maybe to a point, but not at this extent. She is advanced psycologicaly. This does not mean more evolved, but smarter. She figures things out in her head, from motor skills to speach, quicker than the norm.

I did not say we were all born with the same mental abilities. I acknowledged different apptitudes, limitations and benefits. We are all different, but we are all equal. Not better or worse. A disabled person has severe limitations to overcome, but this does not make them "lesser humans". Brain damaged people can be the most loving people alive, and to love fully is one of the most difficult things a human can master.

I do not believe Einstein was any smarter than the next person. He had an aptitude for a particular school of thought which he found, and was able to flourish in. In other areas, such as being a good husband and father, he failed miserably.

It all depends on your value system and how you define intelligence and sucess. How is a woman brilliant at motherhood, wise in teaching children and creating a world of happiness around her, any less sucessful than Alexander the Great: An obsessive conqueror who as a result of his perpetual aggression died young and childless.

Who is the real success?

[ 02-25-2003, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Quote: Originally posted by John D Harris: ....exactly how He did it I don't have a clue, nor does it matter to me. The Bible indicates it took 6 days, a day is a peiod of time. What is time to a infinite God? Did God chose to let the nature, which He created run it's course? Did God start everything off at a set point? IMHO neither matter what matters is that God started it, the hows, whens, or whys are of no consequence...

Mr. Harris, you would be amazed at how much of your sentiment I, an avowed atheist, agree with. In particular I like the excerpt I quoted above. I took it one step further though, and decided that the very existence of God was irrelevant. The way I see it, once you have a moral code and the ability to expand and mature that moral code and yourself, the paths you choose are as clear whether God exists or not. IMO, if you know the good, it doesn't matter whether you believe in God.[/QUOTE]From our point of view (the finite) I would have to agree, is belief in God's existance neccessary for a moral code? No. from God's point of view (the infinite) I can only guess. Belief in God is irrelevant to weither or not God exists. How can the created decide what the Creator does?