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Old 09-28-2001, 07:43 PM   #41
Absynthe
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Absynthe, tolerance and absorbtion are two different things. Just as rejecting an action or belief does not equal to rejecting an individual.
I would hope that you can tolerate my beliefs in the same way I tolerate yours. Respecting the right to hold them dispite stong disagreement with the content.

Besides, I'm a human being. If you deem me openminded I thankyou. It is something I seek to achieve. We all have limits to what we accept and believe though. It seems by your dissapointment you have reached your line and not accepted my view.

I still respect you though.

Hmmm. Perhaps it just struck me wrong... Just seems a bit out of character for you to flat-out decry someones beliefs. Oh well, wtf, it's been a rough go the last couple of weeks, and I'm ready for a relaxing weekend. Have a great weekend yourself, Hugh.


P.S.
But will you respect me in the morning?
As Court Jester of the illuminati, I just HAD to say that...


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Old 09-28-2001, 07:50 PM   #42
Blade
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Join Date: March 12, 2001
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If you must know more about wiccan conan i started a thread a whail ago about it (pecifically asking about it). Wiccans believe in the god and goddess who are intermitenaries between you and the source of power that created the universe because we as humans can't comprhend the power. Please correct me if i'm wrong here i have been reading a lot about the wiccan religion lately and am really getting intrested in it and want to be correct about these things.

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Old 09-28-2001, 07:50 PM   #43
Silver Cheetah
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Join Date: July 26, 2001
Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK
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Quote:
Originally posted by Conan:
Quote:
Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:


If we worshiped each other, ourselves and the moon, and the earth, then I believe we would have more care, love and respect for them. Seeing things as separate from us is where all the trouble starts. If something is part of you, then you are more likely to look after it and love it. That's why the whole family thing can work so well, because we see our children as part of us. I see nothing wrong in that. With my body I thee worship. I like that. And with my mind and my spirit too.

communication with the self.

Is this wiccan beliefs?

Well, I'll leave it to a wiccan to answer that one!

It's part of my belief system though, one of my foundation stones.

In the same way as I believe in a living, evolving universe, I believe in a living evolving belief system. So it changes as I do, as I live and learn and continue to experience life. But at the moment, that's pretty much how I see it, have done for a long time. I can't really see me changing my mind on that one, everything I do just confirms that's the way stuff works. For me, at any rate.



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Old 09-28-2001, 07:51 PM   #44
Yorick
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Join Date: January 7, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:
But the universe isn't like a painting, which is made, and is as it is. Nor am I, nor are you, nor is anything. All of life changes constantly, from one microsecond to the next, from the quantum level up to what we can see and experience.

If we worshiped each other, ourselves and the moon, and the earth, then I believe we would have more care, love and respect for these things. I see nothing wrong in that. With my body I thee worship. I like that. And with my mind and my spirit too.

I wasn't saying prayer and magic were totally the same, only that there is something of the same energy in both. Passion. Love. Ritual doesn't have to be about 'getting' something either. It can be about finding oneself in the act.

I also pray, although I call it meditation. For me, prayer and meditation are communication, communication with the essence of myself, and then moving out, beyond the barriers of the ego, into communion with the whole, which is a divine and transcendent experience (as is true, in the moment, communication with the self.)

Well, I disagree. Meditation is an emptying of the mind. Clearing it of clutter, focussing on thinking nothing or concentrating on a singular thought. One can meditate and pray. Were they the same one could not. Prayer is I repeat communicating with the Creator. The intent and application are totally different. It is conversation. It involves using the mind.

Regarding the earth not being a painting, no of course not. It was an analogy. My belief remains however that universe is a work of art. As an artist I see evidence of such all the time. I also see a seperate artist, and used the analogy to illustrate (however badly) an effect of pantheist thought.

Regarding your speculation on the effect of self-worship, it is just that. If we all followed the words of Jesus we'd have a very peaceful world too.
I believe, that self love taken to the extreme - selfishness at the expense of others - is the root cause of much inconsideration, pain and destruction.

The awareness that a God cares for you enough to breathe life in you, and die for you can give a balanced self-love. Tempered with humility in the face of such power.

Surely we all know the danger of hubris.

Finally, I am a creature of breaking habits. Spontanaity rather than ritual for me. If I get into a ritualised rut I seek to break it. But not all the time (that would be a ritual) I concur that we humans are creatures of habit and ritual, and that for some it provides a measure of comfort and security. For me, life is most exciting when the rules change, when the boundaries move, and when the unexpected occurs.



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Old 09-28-2001, 08:00 PM   #45
Absynthe
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Quote:
Originally posted by Conan:
Quote:
Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:


If we worshiped each other, ourselves and the moon, and the earth, then I believe we would have more care, love and respect for them. Seeing things as separate from us is where all the trouble starts. If something is part of you, then you are more likely to look after it and love it. That's why the whole family thing can work so well, because we see our children as part of us. I see nothing wrong in that. With my body I thee worship. I like that. And with my mind and my spirit too.

communication with the self.

Is this wiccan beliefs?

Yeah Conan, from my perspective what Silver said is a part of it. One of the reasons it's referred to as Neo-paganism is that for the most part we don't have written traditions that date back thousands of years, part of which is due to the repression of paganism . (a historical subject that I ain't touching with a ten-foot athame in this thread...)
Another part of which is that it is not a dogmatic religion. My belief is that the Goddess has created us all individually and that our relationship with Her and Her Consort and the rest of the universe is a unique and individual one. For me to tell you that your mode of worship is wrong is just as ridiculous as to say that your favorite color is incorrect.
Hope that sheds a bit of light on things...



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Old 09-28-2001, 08:05 PM   #46
DragonMage
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Join Date: September 6, 2001
Location: The lighter side of life, a.k.a. Newnan, Georgia
Age: 55
Posts: 2,767
Quote:
Originally posted by Blade:
If you must know more about wiccan conan i started a thread a whail ago about it (pecifically asking about it). Wiccans believe in the god and goddess who are intermitenaries between you and the source of power that created the universe because we as humans can't comprhend the power. Please correct me if i'm wrong here i have been reading a lot about the wiccan religion lately and am really getting intrested in it and want to be correct about these things.
You seem to have the fundamentals down, Blade. Plus I posted a link to the threads in question a little ways up this thread.

I'm even MORE bizarre because I have blended my Christian faith with Wicca. I believe that the 'ultimate source' CAN be comprehended for that is God. I believe in the fundamentals of the Bible (John 3:16, for example). I also know that some of the Christian tenets are based somewhat in pagan beliefs (as are elements of Catholicism, etc.) Those elements of similarity were built in to the faith specifically to get "pagans" to listen to the teachings in the Bible.

My feeling, though, is that, while it is highly important to look to the union of the soul with God (or however you choose to name Him), the union with nature is just as important. God gave the earth to man to oversee it. I'm afraid society has lost sight of that. Man is made from the earth and will return to it. We ARE a part of it as SC and others have said.

At least, that's my belief. Boy, I don't know if I explained things well. It's awfully hard to explain how I have come to the conclusions I have.

P.S. Diogenes and Absynthe, I too look forward to Samhain. This is actually my favorite time of the year. Closely tied with Beltaine!

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The day we stop learning is the day we start dying!(c)

Owner/operator of the Evil Petting Zoo and devout member of the HADB clan.
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Mage extraordinair.
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Hopeless Romantic *sigh*

"Allright! We'll call it a draw."

[This message has been edited by DragonMage (edited 09-28-2001).]
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Old 09-28-2001, 08:07 PM   #47
Diogenes Of Pumpkintown
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Getting off topic, here.

Yorick, Christianity has traditionally viewed God as being SUPER natural -- of being outside and removed from the natural world, which is seen in one sense as a false and temporary world before the everlasting and true world in heaven or hell.

Neo paganism is very different in this regard, seeing God as imbued in nature, in this world, in this life time. THIS world is all we can count on for sure. The rocks and trees and rivers and oceans and animals and plants are all imbued with God. Life is sacred. All life on this planet is Sacred.

Or so the view holds.
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Old 09-28-2001, 08:08 PM   #48
Silver Cheetah
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[quote]Originally posted by Yorick:
Well, I disagree. Meditation is an emptying of the mind. Clearing it of clutter, focussing on thinking nothing or concentrating on a singular thought. One can meditate and pray. Were they the same one could not. Prayer is I repeat communicating with the Creator. The intent and application are totally different. It is conversation. It involves using the mind. [QUOTE]

No it isn't. You can never empty the mind, thoughts will always come in. It's not attaching to thoughts that is the key thing. That's the beginning place in meditation, and that can be taken further. However, that state of mind can then be used to do all kinds of stuff! You can use the mind to move outwards, or you can use that state of mind to receive. It's useful for accessing not only your own unconscious, but also the collective unconcious. If you think meditation is just sitting around being empty, think again! Like I said, that's just mode of using it...... Another way of looking at it is a passive form of prayer. Opening the self to receive and experience the divine, (whatever aspect of it). In meditation, you can reach out, or you can receive. It's like there's a masculine and a feminine mode of meditating. Clearing the mind for a more passive reception, or the more active visualisation, pathworking, exploring the deeps kind. Meditation can work very much on the level of wordless communication with the divine. It can be prayer, but does not have to be.

[QUOTE] Regarding the earth not being a painting, no of course not. It was an analogy. My belief remains however that universe is a work of art. As an artist I see evidence of such all the time. I also see a seperate artist, and used the analogy to illustrate (however badly) an effect of pantheist thought. [QUOTE]

Your point on this being?

[QUOTE] Regarding your speculation on the effect of self-worship, it is just that. If we all followed the words of Jesus we'd have a very peaceful world too. [QUOTE]

Like I said, I've no problem with the idea of self worship (ie.love) nor do I have a problem with following the words of Jesus. They both get us to the same place.

[QUOTE] I believe, that self love taken to the extreme - selfishness at the expense of others - is the root cause of much inconsideration, pain and destruction.[QUOTE]

Selfishness has nothing at all to do with the kind of love I mean. I'm talking about the care of oneself that enables one to care for others and the planet. For example, if I indulge in actions that damage me (I can speak with some authority on this) such as drinking so much that I hurt myself and others around me, I might think I'm giving myself nice things that I like, but in fact I'm killing myself. Same with riding rough shod over friends and family. That is not love of the self. That kind of behaviour comes from self hatred and insecurity. Actions that come from self love benefit the self. When I eat properly, I have self love. When I exercise my body, I do. When I show love or patience to my friends, I have self love. But when I am insecure, and feel the need to defend myself violently or hotly, then I'm no longer centred in myself, and no longer acting from self love.

[QUOTE] The awareness that a God cares for you enough to breathe life in you, and die for you can give a balanced self-love. Tempered with humility in the face of such power. Surely we all know the danger of hubris.
Quote:

But I DO have this! I don't think you understand this way of believing Yorick, and why should you? But in many ways it is much the same as yours. I can feel the universe around me wrapping me in its love every day. Its the same thing, even though we call it by different names and see it in different ways. Neither of us is 'right' and both of us are 'right'. What is right for us as individuals is right, and neither of us have the right to call the other wrong. Go with what works for you, that's what I say. If it enhances your life, then surely it must be good.

Finally, I am a creature of breaking habits. Spontanaity rather than ritual for me. If I get into a ritualised rut I seek to break it. But not all the time (that would be a ritual) I concur that we humans are creatures of habit and ritual, and that for some it provides a measure of comfort and security. For me, life is most exciting when the rules change, when the boundaries move, and when the unexpected occurs.

[/B]


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Old 09-28-2001, 08:09 PM   #49
Mouse
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Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Scotland
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Quote:
Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:

you seem to be saying when you say 'we should accept that whatever effect we have on the future evolution of the earth is only a small paragraph in the billion year long diary of our planet's journey from creation to destruction' - is that whatever we do doesn't matter because the race is going to die out at some point anyway.

But I'm not sure if that is what you're saying! (Grrrr..... lash tail, want something to get to grips with! That's why I'm chanting cop out at you.....)

Ooh, I just saw THE biggest spider ever.

What I am saying is that you may want to accept the possibility that our actions today may have unknown consequences in the future, and the results of the chains of causality may not be what we would expect.

"Good" and "evil" are easy concepts to define by extremes or archetypes as in God -v- Satan. They are not so easy to define when the extremes are removed.

Oh, and was the spider as big as this




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Regards



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[This message has been edited by Mouse (edited 09-28-2001).]
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Old 09-28-2001, 08:10 PM   #50
Absynthe
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Heya, DragonMage, I lucked out for special days, my birthday is May 8, close to Beltaine, my anniversary is Samhaine, and our coven formed on Lughnassad, which is now our family day every year. I'm just a party-boy.

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