A "healthy god debate"

[Calaethis Dragonsbane]

Intresting debate.

Well, for the record I'm a christian; but, my views are a little obscure. You can dissagree with me if you like, but hey, your entitled to your view, just as I'm entitled to mine.

In brief, I believe that, so long as you put God first, and try to live a "good life" its ok. Kinda hard to explain. You could say, I believe in God; not Religion. To be perfectly honest, I don't think much of the church as a whole; induvidually many christians are good people; but the way the church has been abused and used for a tool for power; and the way they dictate things tends to put me off; I feel that you should be free to worship God in your own way; as long as you put Him first. As I said, its sort of hard to explain. Theres nothing wrong with going to church; by all means, if you wish to, thats your protagive, but, for me, I'd rather not. To be perfectly frank, sermons bore me; they always have. And creeds - I feel like I'm a mindless sheep, just reciting things over and over - for me, it doens't feel right. If it helps people, by all means, use it. I'll worship God when I chose to and in my own, and let Him take care of the rest. It feels more sincere then just going to church as a chore - not because I want to. To be honest, I tend to question a *lot*, and my faith is not "blind" - its because of these questions, my faith in God has grown *stronger*. I feel more at peace after questioning - then I did before I'd asked. I guess I've just accepted that there is a lot of evil in the world, but there is also a lot of good; but in the end, it doesn't really matter about the world's evils, because I trust God to correct it - when its the right time. I'm not arrogent enough to pressume that I know what God's plans are. Having attempted to read the book of revelations, has just left me with a headache and a sense of awe. It seems almost surreal at times. But thats besides the point. Ihmo, Jesus came to put an *end* to the old testiment's religious aspect (for the most part) - so we wouldn't have to worship as ridigidy as the Jews of the Old. - Because of that, I dont feel the need to follow Christainty as a Religion - but rather as a relationship with God. I'm not perfect - I'm only human, but I'm sure God'll forgive me, if I ask. Besides, at the end of the day, I've really got nothing to lose - after all, if I'm wrong - I'll have died, but at least I'd have lead a "good life" - and (hopefully) be remembered as a "good person" - but if I'm right, I get to go to paradise for all eternity and be with God. In my eyes, I really don't have anything to lose, and everything to gain.

Yeah, I'll finally get to the point [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Since humans have freewill, I feel that we can make our own choices, based on what we believe - this relates to Harry Potter movies and the "witchcraft" part of it - I think mostly it lies in the intent of going to see it - you can take it at face value, as a film - or you could go deeper into it. There is a danger involved; but then, theres danger in everything. Yes, if you went looking for witchcraft, you could be in danger of being pulled in - and perhaps the movies MAY attract certain ppl to delve deeper into it then is wise - but; I think its the iduviduals choice - and I feel the Church has no right to brand things as evil; I would have hoped they had gotten over that particular phase after the witchhunting of the dark ages ended. If a person truely believes in God - then, surely He'll protect them from the evils of "witchcraft in Harry Potter". Its almost insulting, in a way, that the Church does not trust its own followers to decide for themselves what they feel is right and wrong - we all make mistakes - but we should be *allowed* to make them, and if nessacary, attone for them. To that end, I feel that the church should *warn* if they feel there is a danger, and not brand things "evil and/or wicked" out of hand.

Well, those are just a few of my thoughts on it. If I'm wrong, I'm sure God'll correct me later, perhaps when I'm dead. *wry look*

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Excellent discussion so far...with good points all around.

Stormy - I wish I had a good answer to your questions, dear. I understand what you are saying. Even if the priests or "Christians" are caught and punished by our legal system...it still does NOT erase the pain or trauma of the experience from the victim.

That would certainly make anybody question WHY God would let something that horrible happen if He does exist.

The only thing I can say in way of explanation is that anybody that does that kind of act towards another person - and especially to an innocent child - WILL face the wrath of God after they die. They may fool others or seem to get away with it in this life, but God knows our every thought, deed, and action. Each of us will have to answer for everything we have done in our lives...good and bad. There is no fooling God.

[Desuma Malevois]

"I stopped believing in God when I found they'd lied to me about the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, and the Easter Bunny." ------ Eric Idle in "The Road to Mars".

[img]smile.gif[/img] Just had to throw this neat little quote in here [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Vaskez]

Originally posted by FelixJaeger: Wow Cerek, if only you could have said it like that when they were telling me id burn in hell if i saw the film . I think i was starting to 'lose the faith' before that mainly due to my youth group. We used to split into groups and have lots of God discussions. Our group would meet up on a wednesday, and have some enlightened debates about god, it has recently been threatened to be shut down by some people from the church because they do not pray enough, so there going to lose five or six guys from a very small communtiy of young christians. that is something else that makes me wonder if they have their ideals right. I would say it was more the way christianity is delivered than what it is that drives people away. It says in the bible we were born evil and then all of a sudden we cant do anything wrong unless we fear being the outcast of the church, i dont think it should work like that. Im not sure about God and if he exists but if he exists and he can make this world then why would he care anything for me or anyone else? Someone infinitely powerful cares for something that is infinitely powerless even in the most basic things like knowing the difference between right and wrong? Wow I wrote a lot. Felix p.s. thanks Cerek for dedicating this to me I feel so priveledged, but i agree that we should keep this flame free, mayhaps we could ask a moderator to take part and delete any flame posts?

The people threatening to shut your group down sound like fanatics. That's not healthy. There's hardly enough young people interested in faith these days anyway - why do they wanna get rid of some more?
People who threaten to outcast others from a church for doing wrong are blatant hypocrites.

[Vaskez]

Originally posted by Desuma Malevois: "I stopped believing in God when I found they'd lied to me about the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, and the Easter Bunny." ------ Eric Idle in "The Road to Mars". [img]smile.gif[/img] Just had to throw this neat little quote in here [img]smile.gif[/img]

Sounds like a shit quote to me *shrugs*

[Vaskez]

Originally posted by Calaethis Dragonsbane: Intresting debate. Well, for the record I'm a christian; but, my views are a little obscure. You can dissagree with me if you like, but hey, your entitled to your view, just as I'm entitled to mine. In brief, I believe that, so long as you put God first, and try to live a "good life" its ok. Kinda hard to explain. You could say, I believe in God; not Religion. To be perfectly honest, I don't think much of the church as a whole; induvidually many christians are good people; but the way the church has been abused and used for a tool for power; and the way they dictate things tends to put me off; I feel that you should be free to worship God in your own way; as long as you put Him first. As I said, its sort of hard to explain. Theres nothing wrong with going to church; by all means, if you wish to, thats your protagive, but, for me, I'd rather not. To be perfectly frank, sermons bore me; they always have. And creeds - I feel like I'm a mindless sheep, just reciting things over and over - for me, it doens't feel right. If it helps people, by all means, use it. I'll worship God when I chose to and in my own, and let Him take care of the rest. It feels more sincere then just going to church as a chore - not because I want to. To be honest, I tend to question a *lot*, and my faith is not "blind" - its because of these questions, my faith in God has grown *stronger*. I feel more at peace after questioning - then I did before I'd asked. I guess I've just accepted that there is a lot of evil in the world, but there is also a lot of good; but in the end, it doesn't really matter about the world's evils, because I trust God to correct it - when its the right time. I'm not arrogent enough to pressume that I know what God's plans are. Having attempted to read the book of revelations, has just left me with a headache and a sense of awe. It seems almost surreal at times. But thats besides the point. Ihmo, Jesus came to put an *end* to the old testiment's religious aspect (for the most part) - so we wouldn't have to worship as ridigidy as the Jews of the Old. - Because of that, I dont feel the need to follow Christainty as a Religion - but rather as a relationship with God. I'm not perfect - I'm only human, but I'm sure God'll forgive me, if I ask. Besides, at the end of the day, I've really got nothing to lose - after all, if I'm wrong - I'll have died, but at least I'd have lead a "good life" - and (hopefully) be remembered as a "good person" - but if I'm right, I get to go to paradise for all eternity and be with God. In my eyes, I really don't have anything to lose, and everything to gain.

Spoken from my heart! That's exactly like me/how I think. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Attalus]

LOL @ Vaskez. I definitely think that the worshippers' bond with God is the most personal thing I can imagine. The Episcopal creed contains a line about "those whose faith is known to You alone," which has always moved me. There is only one God, but there are millions of ways that He can become manifest to His believers. I, for one, will never cast stones upon them.

[Vaskez]

Originally posted by Stormymystic: Well mght as well post, Cerek you and I have discused this before,lol and i still can not find the "path" I should take, I still feel lost, and do not belive in god. I ask you this, if god really did excist, why then would his "followers" be allowed to rape a small child? or better yet, why would his "preist" be allowed to molest young children? you knw my resons behind my feelings, if god made everything what was before everything? and how could any being live without the presence of another for time on end?

The answers to your questions are simple. Whether you believe them or not is a different matter.

God exists cos there is no better explanation for anything. His priests are "allowed" to do what they want because we were given free will. God wants us to choose to live his way but he doesn't force us to. God made everything yes. Before everything was God. There is nothing before God because He has always existed. Humans can't comprehend that because we don't have infinite brains, duh. I think we just have to accept the fact that there are some things we will never comprehend - such as the true nature of infinity.
I don't understand your last question.

As said by others I think what's important is what's in your heart. Religion has been misused and abused far too often. Don't let anyone tell you you will go to hell just for watching this movie or not going to church or whatever.

[Vaskez]

Originally posted by Attalus: LOL @ Vaskez. I definitely think that the worshippers' bond with God is the most personal thing I can imagine. The Episcopal creed contains a line about "those whose faith is known to You alone," which has always moved me. There is only one God, but there are millions of ways that He can become manifest to His believers. I, for one, will never cast stones upon them.

Is this in response to my calling certain people fanatics?

[Gangrell]

I always got the feeling that most scientists were or are athiests. Most of them can't just accept something for what it is, and have to pick at it until they're satisfied, which could most likely be never. I've heard of news on television, the internet, and from friends that scientists tried to fully explain the time of Moses. They said he never parted the Red Sea, that God did not use his winds to blow apart the waters, but instead a volcano on an island of present day Sicily erupted and somehow the force was so great, the shockwave traveled 500 miles and parted the waters. Another thing they tried to prove was the voice of God within the burning bush, saying that it is not uncommon because there is a plant in Africa that burns from a reaction with oxygen (or something like that). It really bugs me when scientists try to prove something wrong that has been the voice of God for hundreds of years.

Bloody scientific people [img]tongue.gif[/img]