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Old 02-01-2005, 08:45 PM   #21
Jerry_Seinfeld
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Join Date: December 9, 2004
Location: VA
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I second that IWD 2 is more linear, and IMHO, its more intense since there are bigger battles and battles last longer. Though the battles are intense and perhaps harder, they dont need THAT much of a tactical approach. To get to the bottom of it IWD is more fighting and less roleplaying, BG is more roleplaying and less fighting.
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Old 02-01-2005, 10:54 PM   #22
Gorosh
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marty4:
One thing that I disliked about BG2 is the "rushed feeling". Everyone is all like "Save me!" "Kill him!" "Get my toy back!" "Find my cheating husband!". You really seem to rush from area to area frantically completing quests, while IWD2 is more linear (though some may say that, due to this, BG2 is better).
well, non-linear is certainly better, but i couldn't say BG is extremly non linear (it's more like "i'll do d'arnise before graveyard", which is nice, but not essential - ok, you get to do different quests with different NPC's and different strongholds with diff. PC), but there's few things which i don't like about black isle games (i know this is a subject for another topic for itself, but since were chatting here [img]smile.gif[/img] ...)

1. the biggest problem for me is the adventuring aspect - apart from character creation and spell/weapon description/usefulness nobody needs walkthrough (that's nt bad by itself, it's cooler to play without walkthrough anyway, but it also means that puzzles are just too simple)- i mean, there is no way to do something wrong which will affect whole course of the game (of course, you could accidentally drop some key or other essential item in place like planar prison for example, but that's more of a bug, not a puzzle. although in BG2 most quests aren't fed-ex, they are basically too simple - toughest puzzles i encountered were those riddle-types, and they are also very simple, and if you err, you can basically try again, without reloading. i think those games (bg, iwd) would gain so much depth if puzzles and decisions were little bit tougher, and if they influenced story in various ways.

2. your alignment is not dependant of your actions (this is also connected to previous complaint) - it would be way cooler if your actions had big influence on your alignment - and more realistic of course.

3. your level / skill advancement is not dependant of your actions - you can throw rocks all the time, and eventually learn 8-9th level spells, or open chests and learn to fight with two weapons in your hands. i know that different system would be quite harder to implement, but think of the enormous possibilities opening in development of your character(s).

4. there's too little randomness globally (well, i haven't played IDW2 yet, but in BG2 anyway) - i mean, after you bit game once, you know exact position and it's level/powers/spells/weapons of almost every monster in the game. i think it cripples replay value a lot (i know that lot of people plays those games 5-10 times in a row, and i feel that IDW2 has bigger replay factor because of different tactics you can use with different parties), but with little more complex scripting replaying of those games could be way more interesting (i know there are mods around, but...)

5. well, lot's of different little things - for example maybe more various fighting technis to learn (it would be way better if you could use your sword or unarmed fighting in different ways, 3 or 4, not much...there's whole set of new possibilities in both combat and leveling/development...or maybe having some sort of different belief systems and deities, with various benefits/or penalties - well, lot's of little tweaks that would improve both gameplay,story, imersing, reply value...you see my point.

thing is, in few older, some even dinosaur, AD&D games there was some of the things i said here, and it functione rather well, even quite a while ago - for example "dungeon master" (first rpg i played), i think it's from 1990/91, game was quite complex, and very interesting too - for example, you assembled spells from various runes, more precisely their combinations (you could experiment with different runes, although with higher level spells it would be way hard too actually guess combination, so you had spell guide). the game was so complex that you had to draw maps for it, because it's dungeons were filled with various puzzles, traps (especially teleportation ones), hidden doors and areas...and puzzles were not that easy, sometimes you really had to use your brain bit harder to open lower dungeons, or to escape imprisonment and such. progress balance was also very well done, and overall, for it's time (but i played it 2 years ago and it was still great), it was one of the best computer games period (latere there were games based around same engine - eye of the beholder series, and first lands of lore).

i know lot of people here are happy with games just as they are, and i also do like those games, but i think it's a shame that excellent engine like infinity didn't get deserved option to develop in many interesting ways (i much more prefere 2D and isometric perspective in CRPG, than newer 3D worlds - it's so much more appropriate for RPG - just look at beautiful landscapes and architecture, it's attention to detail etc. in BG or IDW and compare it to (even latest) 3D based RPGs...IMHO 3D just can't (yet anyway) depict fantasy worlds like good old 2D. i know that's next to impossible, but i would love if isometric 2D rpgs came into fashion again, it was so short lived actually, only for few years (well, good ones).
but there's one game which would serve as excellent base for developing crpg (and probablly it's the best crpg of all time, at least for me): ADOM - ancient domains of mystery ( www.adom.de ). the depth of that game and it's system (also based on AD&D, 2nd e.)is unbelievable, and it has almost 100% replay value. i guess adom isn't popular in crpg world as it should be, because it's lack of graphics - adom is "rogue-like" game, meaning it use only ascii characters for display (for example your pc is "@",goblins "g", kobolds "k" etc.). anyway, if anyone didn't play adom yet, i cannot stress out how much i recommend that game (i know it's little bit hard to even consider playing game without complex graphics, but believe me: that game will suck you into it's world and in no time you'll have dragons, kobolds, mages and usual suspects running in your room, which is burning from fireball blast at the moment - since graphics in adom are so simple, your imagination kicks in, and trust me, playing adom is almost hallucinatory experience. adom has single best rpg system i ever played on computer, and you have enormous possibilities (hell, you can be merchant, or you can build bridges, after choping wood for them of course [img]smile.gif[/img] ).level/skill advancement is near perfect, and game almsot cover all topics i described earlier. you do bad things - ok, your alignment shifts toward more evil etc., you can solve things many different ways, and most of all your actions influence game greatly - you can become evil and take that route (intentionally or not), you can loose equipment (realistic aspect rarely implemented in crpg) - acid splash and "ooops, where's my staff of power +3" / or your equipment gets burned /soaked etc., you get the idea. and what makes this game extremly intense, so much that absolutely every click and move counts as big decision is basic game system -> you die=game ends (meaning your ONLY save file gets deleted and that's it). this of course makes this already complex and hard game even more complex and very very hard, but you can always save-scumm (in adom circles considered cheating), and after you've beaten game by save-scumming you can try to play it as author intended (oh yes, adom is product of one man's work - thomas biskup), and have hundreds and hundreds hours of both frustration and fun more. anyway, i strongly suggest you try adom for a change, i, and many more, got hooked on it fast [img]smile.gif[/img]

ok, i don't know why i got this talking surge, but now i feel better

my point is: although black isle games are great, just fe tweaks (some more complex, true) would create 10X intense experience IMHO. i don't know, i don't like very much where rpg graphics are heading, nor am i very fond of massive online games...but IWD" still awaits, and that's cool [img]smile.gif[/img]
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Old 02-02-2005, 01:53 PM   #23
Aragorn1
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i would say that bg2 needs diiferent tactics for every major battle, whereas your tactics seem to evolve linearly in IWD, the same spells can get you through almost every battle, which wasn't true of BG2 due to greater and more varied. immunities, resistances etc.
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Old 02-03-2005, 03:18 PM   #24
Luvian
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Join Date: June 27, 2001
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aragorn1:
i would say that bg2 needs diiferent tactics for every major battle, whereas your tactics seem to evolve linearly in IWD, the same spells can get you through almost every battle, which wasn't true of BG2 due to greater and more varied. immunities, resistances etc.
I never changed my spelld in BG2. I memorised what I thought fit the character and never changed it.

I never pre-buffed either...
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Old 02-09-2005, 05:45 PM   #25
Magness
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Join Date: January 7, 2001
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BG2's magic system is rather different with the variety of spells and counter spells that are necessary for success in BG2 battles.

IWD2 isn't big on the entire concept of counter spells. Like in IWD1, about the only counter spell you ever have or need is Dispel Magic.

Whether you like this or not largely depends on how much you enjoy the role of magic in your D&D combat.


This is not to say that magic is useless in IWD2. It can be very useful. it's just different. Also, clerics can be very powerful in IWD2. While it's technically possible to not use a cleric in IWD2, I wouldn't want to. Clerics are great in these 3e rules.


There are a number of large scale battles in IWD2 against large numbers of moderately tough battles. And in some of those battles, you'll be hit with waves of enemies, so you need to be prepared. You don't want to throw the kitchen sink at the first wave and have nothing left for the follow up attacks.


While the rules for IWD2 and BG2 differe slightly, combat isn't really all that different. Most of the same tactics that worked in BG2 or IWD1 still work in IWD2.
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