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Old 01-16-2003, 02:12 AM   #31
Rikard_OHF
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nanobyte:
quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
I vote NO. We should take a year off and vow no interference anywhere in the world...then sit back and watch them squirm. We may not be all powerful, but an awful lot of people depend on us and our influence (read military might) to keep them alive and their way of life safe.
I agree. Besides, isn't the US in a state of depression already? And when countries go to war, don't they usually tend to come out into a depression? Our economy's been suffering for as long as I know, and we need to spend less on foreign expenditures and more on feeding the hungry and housing the homeless.[/QUOTE]You'll be suprised how little the USA really spends on keeping alive those people if you compare it to the amount of money now spend to kill them all the future. Most European countries, especially from the EU, spend way more then the USA on charity and the development of third world countries, relative to the money they get from taxes etc.

[ 01-16-2003, 02:13 AM: Message edited by: Rikard_OHF ]
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Old 01-16-2003, 09:58 AM   #32
MagiK
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Originally posted by homer:
Are you saying that, as a country, we should only be willing to help out those other countries that agree with our political views? I mean, what exactly are our interests? I was under the impression that we all want some semblance of peace, eventually.

Yes. Ok I will expand on that a bit [img]smile.gif[/img] We should promote and help those nations that share our views, dreams and goals. We should promote and help those who think like us. For those who do not, hey, they are free to do as they please, just don't cross us or ya might get whacked. To quote a bard. "The life you live is dictated by the choices you make", this goes for nations as well as individuals. the philosophy and and ideals of the United States propelled it from nothing to the lone remaining super power in the world in slightly over 200 years. Obviously something was working correctly.

I have no first hand knowledge, so if I am wrong, I apologize. I would suggest that not every time the U.S. gets involved, in a conflict, we are specifically asked to be there.

Well I haven't researched that but, I am willing to bet, that you wouldbe hard pressed to find an instance where there was "no" request from anyone for us to be there. Basicly the US has not just invaded for a weekend exercise in fun and excitment. Even this particular instance with Iraq can in part be attributed to its assault on Kuwait...some just see it as a continuation of policy since Iraq has not abided by its surrender terms.
 
Old 01-16-2003, 10:06 AM   #33
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[quote]Originally posted by Rikard_OHF:
Quote:
Originally posted by Nanobyte:
[qb] You'll be suprised how little the USA really spends on keeping alive those people if you compare it to the amount of money now spend to kill them all the future. Most European countries, especially from the EU, spend way more then the USA on charity and the development of third world countries, relative to the money they get from taxes etc.
Rikard, you only told half the statement...the EU is/was able to spend so little on defense because they were depending on the US to take care of them. As for our military Budget, it is less than 14% of the total, The US spends more on welfare and combined charities and foreign aid. The EU spends a higher percentage maybe on charities but the US still outspends and out gives all the rest of the world combined...according to the UN reports from fiscal year 2000 (the last one I read) So all in all what you said is meaningless.

I will note, that immigrants that I have taked to who have tried living in europe, in Germany, France, Greece, Italy and England have all commented on how rotten immigrants are treated there compared to here, these people are now successful americans (they are part of a small business owners group here in the DC area..it is great to hear their stories of success) who tried making a go of it in Europe and were rejected. There is a reason why the country everyone seems to be trying to get to is the US and not the EU. Maybe when you get it all organized it will change..but right now the Eu is not a friendly place for immigrants.

P.S. Im not bashing those countries, Im just relaying what some small business owners here have related. I personally have never tried to survive in any of them as an immigrant.
 
Old 01-16-2003, 11:00 AM   #34
Rikard_OHF
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Quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:

I will note, that immigrants that I have taked to who have tried living in europe, in Germany, France, Greece, Italy and England have all commented on how rotten immigrants are treated there compared to here, these people are now successful americans (they are part of a small business owners group here in the DC area..it is great to hear their stories of success) who tried making a go of it in Europe and were rejected. There is a reason why the country everyone seems to be trying to get to is the US and not the EU. Maybe when you get it all organized it will change..but right now the Eu is not a friendly place for immigrants.

P.S. Im not bashing those countries, Im just relaying what some small business owners here have related. I personally have never tried to survive in any of them as an immigrant.
[/QB]
These people were the rejects from those countries.
The people who couldnt make it, and because of that have a grunge against that country
Thew Pople who did make it obviously, still live in that country.
On a side note, Italy and Greece arent greatly structured yet, I'll give you that
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Old 01-16-2003, 11:07 AM   #35
Cerek the Barbaric
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chewbacca:
Currently, No. We spend a fortune putting our military overseas, breeding malcontent and mistrust. Look how N.Korea has reacted to GWB's agressive posturing (ie. "axis of evil" label) and the military build up on THEIR side of the world. I would be paranoid as well if I were them. I blame the current administrations policies if N. Korea decides to build and/or use nukes.

IMO If we put those resources spent overseas on defending America's borders and into American cities and schools, I think America and the world would be a better as well as safer place.
Chewbacca - North Korea has used this exact same ploy before. The last time was in 1993. I believe that would have been under Bill Clinton's tenure in the White House.

President Bush is not the blame for North Korea's actions and attitudes - North Korea is.

Here is a link to a story on CNN citing the loooooong running tensions between the U.S. and North Korea. It dates all the way back to Dwight D. Eisenhower and the after-effects of the Korean War.

Tension with North Korea

I do agree with your sentiment (and that of others) that the U.S. should listen to those who keep telling us to "mind our own business". I also agree that it wouldn't take more than a year for many of those same critics to be asking for our help again and blaming us of "turning a blind eye" to global problems.

We are in a no-win situation. We will be criticized for any action we take and we will be equally criticized for taking no action.
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Old 01-16-2003, 11:12 AM   #36
MagiK
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rikard_OHF:
quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:

I will note, that immigrants that I have taked to who have tried living in europe, in Germany, France, Greece, Italy and England have all commented on how rotten immigrants are treated there compared to here, these people are now successful americans (they are part of a small business owners group here in the DC area..it is great to hear their stories of success) who tried making a go of it in Europe and were rejected. There is a reason why the country everyone seems to be trying to get to is the US and not the EU. Maybe when you get it all organized it will change..but right now the Eu is not a friendly place for immigrants.

P.S. Im not bashing those countries, Im just relaying what some small business owners here have related. I personally have never tried to survive in any of them as an immigrant.
These people were the rejects from those countries.
The people who couldnt make it, and because of that have a grunge against that country
Thew Pople who did make it obviously, still live in that country.
On a side note, Italy and Greece arent greatly structured yet, I'll give you that[/QB][/QUOTE]Actually you didn't read what I wrote. They were IMMIGRANTS in THOSE countries too, they were from eastern europe and the middle east and the European coountries (according to them) treated them like Sh*t...they managed to get the America where suddenly these "loosers" (from your apparent perspective) are able to be respectible business owners and citizens.... Please read what I write before responding.
 
Old 01-16-2003, 11:20 AM   #37
MagiK
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric:
- North Korea has used this exact same ploy before. The last time was in 1993. I believe that would have been under Bill Clinton's tenure in the White House.

President Bush is not the blame for North Korea's actions and attitudes - North Korea is.

Here is a link to a story on CNN citing the loooooong running tensions between the U.S. and North Korea. It dates all the way back to Dwight D. Eisenhower and the after-effects of the Korean War.

Tension with North Korea

I do agree with your sentiment (and that of others) that the U.S. should listen to those who keep telling us to "mind our own business". I also agree that it wouldn't take more than a year for many of those same critics to be asking for our help again and blaming us of "turning a blind eye" to global problems.

We are in a no-win situation. We will be criticized for any action we take and we will be equally criticized for taking no action.
It would also be wise to note that the only reason North Korea is currently able to posture and threaten Nuclear war is because the Clinton Administration GAVE them the Nuclear reactors that could produce plutonium at a rate that would allow thenm to build 70+ bombs a year....a move that was contrary to the previous 9 US administrations...their reasoning for doing this? North Korea PROMISED Not to use the reactors for weapons productions.... (oh the Clinton administration gave them 6Billion dollars in aid and technology.

[ 01-16-2003, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]
 
Old 01-16-2003, 11:22 AM   #38
Rikard_OHF
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Quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:

Actually you didn't read what I wrote. They were IMMIGRANTS in THOSE countries to, they owere from eastern europe and the middle east and the European coountries (according to them) treated them like Sh*t...they managed to get the America where suddenly these "loosers" (from your apparent perspective) are able to be respectible business owners and citizens.... Please read what I write before responding. [/QB]
they way you wrote it i thought they came from the US and moved to Europe...

Anyway, from my own experience (as child of an immigrant and being surrounded by people who immegrated to Holland) Europe is not such a hard place to live. My Parents moved from China to the netherlands and they made it up to the upper middle class.
Some people will always have trouble living a specific country because of the culture. American Culture is quite different from Dutch Culture and Dutch culture is very different from French. If you are unlucky to end up in a country where people think differently and act differently from you, it's very very hard to integrate, and start a thriving business. Alderian had trouble living in Holland for example, and he came from england.
There's loads of people who have trouble living in the US, a friend of my brothers moved to the US and he didnt like it. That doesnt mean the country is bad, it means that they had a bad experience with that country.
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Old 01-16-2003, 11:26 AM   #39
MagiK
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Originally posted by Rikard_OHF:
they way you wrote it i thought they came from the US and moved to Europe...

Hmm well I can't see how you got that impression, but it was obviously a misunderstanding.

Anyway, from my own experience (as child of an immigrant and being surrounded by people who immegrated to Holland) Europe is not such a hard place to live. My Parents moved from China to the netherlands and they made it up to the upper middle class.
Some people will always have trouble living a specific country because of the culture. American Culture is quite different from Dutch Culture and Dutch culture is very different from French. If you are unlucky to end up in a country where people think differently and act differently from you, it's very very hard to integrate, and start a thriving business. Alderian had trouble living in Holland for example, and he came from england.
There's loads of people who have trouble living in the US, a friend of my brothers moved to the US and he didnt like it. That doesnt mean the country is bad, it means that they had a bad experience with that country.

The people I am talking about made their way westward trying to find places that they would be accepted. One guy move to germany, to france to england, another came from turkey, to greece, to italy to france to england then to the US....its not like these people were not looking for a place to live and succeed, The stories were that the governments of said nations were rather .... rude to them....in the end they got here and succeeded...that is the comoon thread.

Edit: Ack!! The thread has been hijacked ..I am such a sucker for going off on tangents..sorry...so back On topic...The US is requested to be the worlds policeman, if we ignore the call we are blamed, if we answer the call we are blamed, it is as Cerek said, a no win situation.
[ 01-16-2003, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]
 
Old 01-16-2003, 11:28 AM   #40
Chewbacca
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Join Date: July 18, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric:
Chewbacca - North Korea has used this exact same ploy before. The last time was in 1993. I believe that would have been under Bill Clinton's tenure in the White House.

President Bush is not the blame for North Korea's actions and attitudes - North Korea is.

Here is a link to a story on CNN citing the loooooong running tensions between the U.S. and North Korea. It dates all the way back to Dwight D. Eisenhower and the after-effects of the Korean War.

Tension with North Korea

I do agree with your sentiment (and that of others) that the U.S. should listen to those who keep telling us to "mind our own business". I also agree that it wouldn't take more than a year for many of those same critics to be asking for our help again and blaming us of "turning a blind eye" to global problems.

We are in a no-win situation. We will be criticized for any action we take and we will be equally criticized for taking no action.
I do not recall Clinton calling N. Korea "evil" (even if they are)or building up a huge military presence over near them either. Bubba was a bit more diplomatic than that.

It takes two to tango, that is, it take two to wage war and to engage in agressive posturing. History reveals that walking softly and carrying a big stick is the best way to handle N. Korea and avoid conflict. Clinton policies along these lines helped achieve somewhat of a dialog over there.

Bush policies have been anything but diplomatic concerning N. Korea and have set back relations 20 years.
You may choose not to see GWB's role in the current escelation of tension, but it is there.
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